Video Review

[Vance Wood]

It's not as hard as folks make it out to be.

That's exactly right. Sometimes you don't find if you don't look.

 

[Vance Wood]

I know that I started this post and I have enjoyed sitting back and enjoying what all of you have been saying, it's very interesting. I will tell you what I think is the main difference between the 80's version of the graduates from Japan and those coming out today. Those from thirty and forty years ago were taught mostly technical stuff, some of which has changed over the years and we are having to relearn it as well, and almost nothing about art. Maybe the Japanese thought we were not capable of handling that aspect of the art, being beyond our Western comprehension. I have heard that many Japanese masters sill harbor that attitude, we just cannot grasp the spirit of bonsai. That has changed; today the new graduates are teaching art and the demonstrations demonstrate that aspect. The determining factor is the survival rate of these trees.

 

[Adair M]

To put the point back on the pencile; I am not interested in pillorying Kathy, I am interested in people's comments about the video and what you thought about the presentation. Of course I have my opinion as well, don't you think I am entitled to that as well as you? But is seems around here, especially during the last couple of weeks nobody has been posting any content that is worth talking about---in my opinion, relevant to me. You may not like me or you may think I have an agenda, but I've got you talking.

Here is another to look at that demonstrates what happens when you think you have it figured out because you watched something on Youtube and thought you could make great art if you kept cutting. By the way it's in German I think.

Holy Smokes! He cut off the stuff he should have saved, and tried to use he stuff he should have cut off!!

It would be funny if t weren’t so sad

 

[music~maker]

Seriously how often can you actually find good bonsai material in a local nursery? Even in a dedicated bonsai nursery one has to sort through many trees to find the better material.

Good material is definitely out there at the local nurseries and landscape shops. It's not there every time, and I often have to crawl around to check out trunks on 50-100 trees or more (sometimes many more) to find one good one, but it is out there. The better stuff is more likely to be at the dedicated bonsai shop, but that's by no means guaranteed. Even at the bonsai shop, I end up sorting through a ton of trees to find the one I want. I find my odds are a little better there, but for the kinds of things I look for, not that much better.

What I do get at the bonsai shop is better variety of species. For example, if I want larch, my options are the bonsai shop or to go yamadori hunting. But even at the bonsai shop, I still sort through a lot of mediocre trees to find the good ones, and it's not all that uncommon to walk away empty-handed. Despite having some really good bonsai shops near me, most of my collection has come from local nurseries and landscaping shops.

 

[River's Edge]

Assuming that to be true, your belief that finding decent material in a nursery is an impossibility leaves the beginner being told that if you cannot afford or are not capable of collecting Yamadori your self you are totally wasting your time -----and ours as well. I know you did not say this in those words buy your above post seems to indicate that's what you believe. Your up front question: Seriously how often can you actually find good bonsai material in a local nursery? Often enough to keep me interested. It is not easy and demands just about as much dedication to the hunt that you need to exercise at 10,000 ft. My entire collection is nursery trees and I know some of you may be snickering beneath your breath; "yeah and it shows". but the fact remains I have a few trees that I have been told stand up to some of the better collected trees they have seen. Material is what you make it. I have seen some junk made of trees collected from the mountains. Just because they are old does not make them good. Anybody know what a coprolite is, that's pretty old too.

When you live in the PNW it is an easy thing to find where it is allowed to collect Yamidori. For many of the rest of us it is not directly possible, and some are tending to make exclusive groups that only the select can attain to.

Your absolutely right, I did not say that. I spoke about the importance of selecting better quality material. However you have the right to reflect your opinion.

 

[Vance Wood]

Holy Smokes! He cut off the stuff he should have saved, and tried to use he stuff he should have cut off!!

It would be funny if t weren’t so sad

I agree, it is almost tragic when you see how some people comprehend some of these demonstrations and try to emulate them---with little success. But I have said it before, the demonstration means nothing if the tree does not survive. I have a couple of others I could post if you want.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I know that I started this post and I have enjoyed sitting back and enjoying what all of you have been saying, it's very interesting. I will tell you what I think is the main difference between the 80's version of the graduates from Japan and those coming out today. Those from thirty and forty years ago were taught mostly technical stuff, some of which has changed over the years and we are having to relearn it as well, and almost nothing about art. Maybe the Japanese thought we were not capable of handling that aspect of the art, being beyond our Western comprehension. I have heard that many Japanese masters sill harbor that attitude, we just cannot grasp the spirit of bonsai. That has changed; today the new graduates are teaching art and the demonstrations demonstrate that aspect. The determining factor is the survival rate of these trees.

Which of the old and new masters have you personally worked with in the last few years which leads you to this conclusion?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Here is another to look at that demonstrates what happens when you think you have it figured out because you watched something on Youtube and thought you could make great art if you kept cutting. By the way it's in German I think.

LOL did you read some of the comments in German? Here's a sampling:

oje oje und wieder ein Baum den Du direkt in den Himmel schickst ....
ein Nadelbaum nimmt Dir solche grossen Aktionen schneller übel als zb ein Ahorn...
lies doch bitte erst in diversen Foren bevor Du die Bäume killst

Oh dear, oh dear! And again a tree that you send directly to Heaven...
A conifer takes injury faster from such big actions than for example a maple ...
Please read first in various forums before you kill the trees

 

[Vance Wood]

I have worked with none of them but I have participate in a couple of workshops etc. I never said I had worked with any of them. I participate with Yuji Yoshimura in a worishop and got to bleed his mind that's probably the oldest and earliest. It was all technique and almost no art outside the definition of styles and forms. I have assisted Bjorn very limited, and several lesser masters and my assessment holds true.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

my assessment holds true.

Not for me, but we can’t actually debate it if you haven’t had the experiences.
What’s the saying, you’re entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts!

 

[Eric Group]

Ok, I’ll grant you that. But, I have little interest in seeing a $20 Procumbens styled for the umpteenth time! The problem is, when the club sees these demos over and over, they think that’s what bonsai is. It’s like they stay at the beginners level forever. There are members of our local club who really aren’t any better now than they were back in the 1980’s! They don’t cut back, they pinch, pinch, pinch, they don’t get taper in their trunks and branches, they have no interior foliage, Silohette is too dense, potted poorly...

So... people like myself find there’s no reason to attend. I try to teach people, they argue with me. They’ll say, “I’ve been doing it this way for 30 years!” And I’ll say, “well, you’ve been doing it wrong for 30 years! I did too. We were all taught wrong!” Then they go, “I was taught by John Naka!” Then me: “I was, too. A lot of things John taught were wrong! I’ve had to relearn most everything that I thought I knew!” And that blows their minds because they think Naka’s Bonsai Techniques 1 And 2 are the Bible of bonsai.

So, if the club brings in the old headliners to go the same thing tjey’ve done over and over, I’ll pass. Bring in some of the young bucks, like Sherrard, Andrade, Reel, Coffey, Bjorn, or Neal, then I’ll go.

I think the notion of right or wrong being so concrete in Bonsai is incorrect personally...

 

[cockroach]

I agree, it is almost tragic when you see how some people comprehend some of these demonstrations and try to emulate them---with little success. But I have said it before, the demonstration means nothing if the tree does not survive. I have a couple of others I could post if you want.

Yes please do post.
I am guilty of doing that to juniper once after watching video online saying remove all branches growing down, up, straight forward or in a crotch. Tree lasted all of about 6 weeks. I went back watched the video again, found links to videos very similar to the Kathy video posted and saw the errors I had made. They help. After watching more similar videos I joined another bonsai forum but was reluctant as it seemed to be slugfest of balls on the table for comparison. Finding this forum helped a lot clarify questions I had from videos.

Nothing however, helped as much as a 7 week (Saturday class) course I did with an English speaking Taiwanese master to understand styling more. Not that it shows that much but I understand what I see, hear and read more which hopefully pays dividends in the future. The reason I personally learnt from the class was that we discussed bonsai philosophy and styling in depth. Then we worked on our own trees. These ranged from twigs to semi developed trees. The master made some drastic alterations to trees that seemed counterproductive. After we had done all of this, we worked on one of his large, very well developed trees and he showed how the philosophy and cutting, pruning and setting up the tree turned into. It made sense this way and showed what needed to be done only after we saw the actual results.

How about that video hey guys? Isn't this what the thread is about. Put that damn train back on the rails. We want to learn not leave the thread.

Perhaps these forums could be used for people in the hobby to say what they lack in knowledge/theory or practice and ask "masters" to show them this. Would that help the people doing demos to better structure demos to actual needs instead of perceived needs. Just a thought.

 

[Vance Wood]

Not for me, but we can’t actually debate it if you haven’t had the experiences.
What’s the saying, you’re entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts!

I don't know what you expect from me Brian? Have you ever met Yuji Yoshimura or talked to him? I have probably not met many of the people you have been exposed to so what's the point?

 

[Vance Wood]

I think the notion of right or wrong being so concrete in Bonsai is incorrect personally...

I do to. Sometimes a person or in many cases a group of people are so bonded to a teacher that it becomes like a cult. You are not welcome and anything you say or think or dare to ask will be stomped into the mud. This is the bad side of bonsai. It's like martial arts schools.

 

[Bonsai toto]

Ok, I’ll grant you that. But, I have little interest in seeing a $20 Procumbens styled for the umpteenth time! The problem is, when the club sees these demos over and over, they think that’s what bonsai is. It’s like they stay at the beginners level forever. There are members of our local club who really aren’t any better now than they were back in the 1980’s! They don’t cut back, they pinch, pinch, pinch, they don’t get taper in their trunks and branches, they have no interior foliage, Silohette is too dense, potted poorly...

So... people like myself find there’s no reason to attend. I try to teach people, they argue with me. They’ll say, “I’ve been doing it this way for 30 years!” And I’ll say, “well, you’ve been doing it wrong for 30 years! I did too. We were all taught wrong!” Then they go, “I was taught by John Naka!” Then me: “I was, too. A lot of things John taught were wrong! I’ve had to relearn most everything that I thought I knew!” And that blows their minds because they think Naka’s Bonsai Techniques 1 And 2 are the Bible of bonsai.

So, if the club brings in the old headliners to go the same thing tjey’ve done over and over, I’ll pass. Bring in some of the young bucks, like Sherrard, Andrade, Reel, Coffey, Bjorn, or Neal, then I’ll go.

I have encounter people as such too, they wondering what when wrong but when there is legit and proof INFO, guess what, they close their ear especially to younger generation or to the person that has less years of involvement in bonsai compare to them. lmao.
like true bonsais said, let the tree do the talking.
cheers.

 

[Eric Group]

I do to. Sometimes a person or in many cases a group of people are so bonded to a teacher that it becomes like a cult. You are not welcome and anything you say or think or dare to ask will be stomped into the mud. This is the bad side of bonsai. It's like martial arts schools.

I can agree with that. Bonsai, like any art form, means different things to different people and there are certainly different means to the end...

I am not directing any shade at Adair or the Boone family of practitioners though.. I have met Adair a few times now and he is a good guy. I have loads of respect for Boone and many of his students give fantastic information freely across the web.

I just don't Agree with the idea of their being only one way to do things and try to learn as much as possible from various sources, applying what is relevant and makes sense to me when I need it...

 

[Adair M]

I can agree with that. Bonsai, like any art form, means different things to different people and there are certainly different means to the end...

I am not directing any shade at Adair or the Boone family of practitioners though.. I have met Adair a few times now and he is a good guy. I have loads of respect for Boone and many of his students give fantastic information freely across the web.

I just don't Agree with the idea of their being only one way to do things and try to learn as much as possible from various sources, applying what is relevant and makes sense to me when I need it...

Oh, don’t take me so literally! When I say “you’re doing it wrong”, I’m really saying there’s a better way. Many people are close minded. They learn to do something, And they never change.

Eric, I’m still learning new things about bonsai. New techniques. So is Boon! Things like the Ebihara technique for developing nebari. Boon saw it in a magazine, then went and visited with Mr Ebihara to see his trees and grafting techniques. And now Boon teaches those techniques to his students.

Bonsai, the art or craft of making bonsai, is constantly changing. The trees get older. Styles come and go. The tools we use get better, and new tools are invented. I remember my first set of Masakuni tools. (Masakuni was all there was then!) it had scissors and concave cutters. It wasn’t until about 5 years later that knob cutters were introduced!

 

[bwaynef]

I remember my first set of Masakuni tools. (Masakuni was all there was then!) it had scissors and concave cutters. It wasn’t until about 5 years later that knob cutters were introduced!

And those pesky velociraptors used to steal them for sport, right?

 

[M. Frary]

And those pesky velociraptors used to steal them for sport, right?

Toenail trimming.

 

[Vance Wood]

I do to. Sometimes a person or in many cases a group of people are so bonded to a teacher that it becomes like a cult. You are not welcome and anything you say or think or dare to ask will be stomped into the mud. This is the bad side of bonsai. It's like martial arts schools.