Video Review

[cockroach]

That material was “raw field grown stock”. But, it was raised to become a bonsai. So, it had been cut back a couple times while in the ground. But she said it was leggy, overgrown, with most of the foliage at the ends of long branches. She cut back a lot of foliage, not just for design, but to get sunlight into the interior of the canopy. To get backbudding and eventually new branches in closer to the trunk.

Please understand my next comment: this kind of demo is part of the problem we have with bonsai education here in the US. Nothing against Kathy, she did what was needed to start this material off to a good start. Her Jin work was excellent! But, the expectation is that a Master can turn a bush into a show worthy bonsai in 30 minutes! Which is just ridiculous! That thing needs at least 5 years before it’s anywhere near showable.

All we ever see at most demos is raw stock be given an initial cutback and rough style.

Rarely is a demo made using material that that been thru the initial styling stage and be ready for the first step of refinement. Why? It’s usually because of the cost of the material. Clubs usually aren’t willing to purchase an advanced tree, because the typical approach is the tree gets auctioned off after the demo, and who knows if the club will recoup their cost!

At the Winter Silohette Show, Tyler Sherrard and Juan Andrade worked on an advanced JWP with old bark that apparently was on its own roots. Not a graft. This tree was a gift from Boon to Tyler to celebrate his graduation from apprenticeship in Japan. This tree was not overgrown, it did have interior growth, but it had not been styled. This demo, any pruning was done not to induce backbudding, but for styling: positioning, and making sure lower branches would be thicker than branches higher in the tree, etc. Yes, some branches were jinned. White pines are mountain trees and they do naturally have jins, whereas JBP are coastal trees and rarely have jins. The end result was spectacular! It should be show worthy in a year after it fills out a little.

The problem is, material like that costs about $5000!

So, the typical demo cannot show how to really begin refinement simply because of the cost of material. (Tyler’s tree was not auctioned off after the demo! Lol!!)

There was someone there filming the demo, I hope it gets posted on the Internet.

I completely agree with your above sentiments. And agree Kathy did what she could.

Your point about demo quality is an interesting one for me. Again, and always, the following comments and thoughts are just my opinion on a very limited experience.

When a "master" is doing a demo, should they not be bringing along a tree of their own to show the thoughts, reasons, methods/techniques as well as skills to illustrate to the people watching the demo. Granted, Taiwan is smaller and easier and more pertinently, cheaper, to get personal quality specimens to a demo. But, it should still be a priority to give people a real life view of what path the demo techniques set the bonsai on. If the material that is started with is deemed quality enough. Then the extra tree may not be necessary. In Taiwan, demos are used as a platform to highlight work from the "masters".

I feel that, this is how the big names got their start back in the day. The men and women we talk about today. They worked hard locally and with good material for people attending to learn what is needed for good bonsai down the road. I think the internet has a big part to play in this, as mentioned in my earlier post. Everyone wants the superstar from across the world/country to demo for them on sub-standard material and shoestring budgets. I am sure, if not positive, local bonsai growers, stylists, artists (call them what you will) may and do exist all across the world. If we spent budgets on getting them to shows locally the material used could be better quality leading to a better learning experience. Furthermore, if a "big name" wants to come do a demo to promote her/himself (which at the end of the day is what it is all about and kudos to them for it) they should be putting in some of their own work and material selection/provision. All to quickly these days we treat skilled bonsai folk as pseudo celebrities because we see them on TV (read Youtube/blog/vlogs) and some come to expect the treatment that comes along with this "title".

Having said that, I have nothing against any bonsai artists and in fact enjoy the back and forth "banter" between the warring factions in the bonsai microcosm of horticulture and art. I am very grateful for the videos and tutorials they put out as I personally have gained from many of them. Good and bad ones. But in a science and art form that promotes and requires peer to peer learning through demos and workshops people need to really give not just appear to be giving.

Once again, please understand I am not here to start arguments, pick sides or get hackles up. These are the ramblings and personal opinion of an amateur.

Bonsai on as a community people!

 

[cockroach]

I concur. It should 4 initial styling (cut back wire main branches, angle choice, maybe repot) and do 4 yearly updates on the same trees instead of 1 instant bonsai.

This could also prove to be much more sustainable for the people making a living off their bonsai skill set. And may weed out a few chancers here and there.

Bet nobody expected this to go here, some substantive discussion without name calling, threats, and hurt feelings. The fact remains that almost everybody has an opinion and not all of them are the same or even similar.

Great point which begs the question. What are we doing to change it? Is it the pursuit of a few select individuals or should we be approach this as a community not an oligarchy? Study groups and lower the expectations for instant gratitude from the "wow factor" and have a more realistic, long term mindset.

 

[Vance Wood]

Study groups always have a pissing contest either at the beginning or at the first sign of disagreement. We are all still human beings and as such we are quick to grab power and slow to relinquish it. Sometimes the Study group becomes nothing more than mine is bigger than yours. However without some sort of "Wow" factor it is a large question as to how much or how long it will last. Unless one individual has decided that they desire to submit to an other's positions and ideas it is difficult to see this go anywhere. Several years ago our club decided to invest in a JBP cultivar that was pretty nice. Problem was that of the ten or so people active in the project no one could agree on the tree.

 

[cockroach]

Trufax right there.
Ego has, is and will be a problem in bonsai. At least it is becoming more openly discussed which in theory should lead to a evolution (dare we hope for a revolution). But there is also blame on the part of the people watching who assume that something radical must happen or it is not a worthwhile person/demo to watch.

 

[Vance Wood]

To continue: In the end the tree died after being passed around and going through the hands of too many people.

 

[Eric Group]

That material was “raw field grown stock”. But, it was raised to become a bonsai. So, it had been cut back a couple times while in the ground. But she said it was leggy, overgrown, with most of the foliage at the ends of long branches. She cut back a lot of foliage, not just for design, but to get sunlight into the interior of the canopy. To get backbudding and eventually new branches in closer to the trunk.

Please understand my next comment: this kind of demo is part of the problem we have with bonsai education here in the US. Nothing against Kathy, she did what was needed to start this material off to a good start. Her Jin work was excellent! But, the expectation is that a Master can turn a bush into a show worthy bonsai in 30 minutes! Which is just ridiculous! That thing needs at least 5 years before it’s anywhere near showable.

All we ever see at most demos is raw stock be given an initial cutback and rough style.

Rarely is a demo made using material that that been thru the initial styling stage and be ready for the first step of refinement. Why? It’s usually because of the cost of the material. Clubs usually aren’t willing to purchase an advanced tree, because the typical approach is the tree gets auctioned off after the demo, and who knows if the club will recoup their cost!

At the Winter Silohette Show, Tyler Sherrard and Juan Andrade worked on an advanced JWP with old bark that apparently was on its own roots. Not a graft. This tree was a gift from Boon to Tyler to celebrate his graduation from apprenticeship in Japan. This tree was not overgrown, it did have interior growth, but it had not been styled. This demo, any pruning was done not to induce backbudding, but for styling: positioning, and making sure lower branches would be thicker than branches higher in the tree, etc. Yes, some branches were jinned. White pines are mountain trees and they do naturally have jins, whereas JBP are coastal trees and rarely have jins. The end result was spectacular! It should be show worthy in a year after it fills out a little.

The problem is, material like that costs about $5000!

So, the typical demo cannot show how to really begin refinement simply because of the cost of material. (Tyler’s tree was not auctioned off after the demo! Lol!!)

There was someone there filming the demo, I hope it gets posted on the Internet.

I am sure cost is a reason for the raw quality of many demo trees, but the experience level and quality of the stock owned by most of the audience plays a factor as well. Why spend hours telling a crowd of people how to put the finishing touches on a refined piece of material that has been worked on for Decades by a master Most in the crowd have a bunch of nursery stock at home they paid $5 for at Lowes?

 

[Vance Wood]

I am sure cost is a reason for the raw quality of many demo trees, but the experience level and quality of the stock owned by most of the audience plays a factor as well. Why spend hours telling a crowd of people how to put the finishing touches on a refined piece of material that has been worked on for Decades by a master Most in the crowd have a bunch of nursery stock at home they paid $5 for at Lowes?

Because you work to find the one--- or more who will listen and grow and continue in bonsai. So many people that start don't finish. I get my self in trouble where ever I go for telling people that start with some crumby little innocuous and useless tree that they are wasting their time. By the time the tree gets to a point where it may be something worth working with you could have an entire nursery full of far better material, on its way to becoming a bonsai ---- more fun too. Here is another interesting fact about growing bonsai; most people that tell you about growing from seed did not start their career in bonsai by starting seeds and watching the slow progression to a bonsai over many many years. They probably started with much older and larger trees that they have worked down into bonsai over the years.

 

[River's Edge]

Sifu,

since you were so kind to share your knowledge with me, I have
tried to share with you the Chinese ideas on Bonsai/Penjing.

The Chinese evolved Bonsai to an intellectual pursuit.
It is more than trying to make a tree look like a tree.
But you have often said reading of books is not for you.

So I am afraid Bonsai will remain, a gardener's practice.
Not to fuss, you are still Sifu.
I will not mention any of this again.
Humbly,
Anthony

In Defense of Sifu. I have seen and heard him read. Actually ask questions from written material with comprehension and clarity. He does not always just look at the pictures. For me thinks he understands well the devil is in the details not the general philosophy.

 

[cockroach]

To continue: In the end the tree died after being passed around and going through the hands of too many people.

That is tragic that that many people can't come to consensus even with a wealth of knowledge.
It reminds of a story of one Youtube bonsai guy. He often helped with recue trees I believe. He said so often he saw from group efforts a tree get hacked to almost oblivion and be forced into a literati or cascade style as everyone had their say.

 

[Adair M]

I am sure cost is a reason for the raw quality of many demo trees, but the experience level and quality of the stock owned by most of the audience plays a factor as well. Why spend hours telling a crowd of people how to put the finishing touches on a refined piece of material that has been worked on for Decades by a master Most in the crowd have a bunch of nursery stock at home they paid $5 for at Lowes?

Hmm... I’m not sure you understood what I was trying to say. And, I think that most of the observers of demos at shows and conventions are not newbies. I think most have Show trees, or have trees they’ve had for a while that are pretty good, but they can’t break thru to the next level. For them to watch another raw tree to get a start is not teaching what they need to know to progress.

When I teach classes at Plant City, I bring along a couple of my own Show trees so the students can see what their trees could look like in the future. It’s funny, Steve Cratty, the owner of Plant City always says that I embarrass him when I bring my trees because they are so much better than what he has! And, it’s true. Plant City sells bonsai stock, some with no training, some with some training, but rarely do they have trees in the refinement stage. Only when Steve is able to buy someone’s collection does he have truly advanced trees for sale.

But, the point I’m trying to make is when they see my JBP with needles less than an inch long, and they haven’t been cut, and the branches are dense and full that they see what it is they’re trying to achieve. I’ll get comments like “That’s the best Mugo Pine I’ve ever seen!” I’ll say, “That’s not a Mugo, it’s a Japanese Black Pine”. Next comes, “That can’t be a JBP, the needles are so short!” I tell them, “Good thing you’re here today, because I’m going to teach you how it’s done!”

So now when I show them the techniques, they can see it actually works. If I didn’t bring the tree to the workshop, it would be hard for the students to visualize how their trees could look in the future.

 

[ghues]

@Adair M,
Your thoughts above are well founded when I look at the journey I’ve taken (perhaps for many of us). I have seen many demos where my focus has been on “how the demonstrator see’s the Bonsai within the raw stock”, (not the wiring, deadwood making etc) most importantly (as Kathy did in the video) how they set up the basic design so that it can be developed and refined over time.
It’s helped me a lot but the most influence has been from working with a couple of local friends who have been practicing for decades and their trees have won best in show at local PNW conventions.
So I’ve fumbled along with some special coaching and a lot of self exploration/experimentation to the point where my trees have developed as my understanding has........so many of my trees (almost all are yamadori) are beginning to transition from development to refinement stage (only taken 12 years lol)....trying to reach or as you so eloquently said “breaking through to the next level”.
Cheers G

 

[Adair M]

@Adair M,
Your thoughts above are well founded when I look at the journey I’ve taken (perhaps for many of us). I have seen many demos where my focus has been on “how the demonstrator see’s the Bonsai within the raw stock”, (not the wiring, deadwood making etc) most importantly (as Kathy did in the video) how they set up the basic design so that it can be developed and refined over time.
It’s helped me a lot but the most influence has been from working with a couple of local friends who have been practicing for decades and their trees have won best in show at local PNW conventions.
So I’ve fumbled along with some special coaching and a lot of self exploration/experimentation to the point where my trees have developed as my understanding has........so many of my trees (almost all are yamadori) are beginning to transition from development to refinement stage (only taken 12 years lol)....trying to reach or as you so eloquently said “breaking through to the next level”.
Cheers G

There are good bonsai people in the PNW!! Ryan Neil, Michael Hagedorn, and Matt Reel to name a few. Time spent with them is well worth it.

 

[ghues]

There are good bonsai people in the PNW!! Ryan Neil, Michael Hagedorn, and Matt Reel to name a few. Time spent with them is well worth it.

You need to think further north lol......a couple of real sleepers up here, not looking for fame or fortune, both are extremely versed at yamadori collection and their trees are in high demand for the Portland Bonsai Village big names and many regular practioners all through Washington state and southern B.C. Over the last decade or so folks like Michael, Boon, Matt, Dan R., Bobby C. have seeked them out for their trees.
G.

 

[Eric Group]

Hmm... I’m not sure you understood what I was trying to say. And, I think that most of the observers of demos at shows and conventions are not newbies. I think most have Show trees, or have trees they’ve had for a while that are pretty good, but they can’t break thru to the next level. For them to watch another raw tree to get a start is not teaching what they need to know to progress.

When I teach classes at Plant City, I bring along a couple of my own Show trees so the students can see what their trees could look like in the future. It’s funny, Steve Cratty, the owner of Plant City always says that I embarrass him when I bring my trees because they are so much better than what he has! And, it’s true. Plant City sells bonsai stock, some with no training, some with some training, but rarely do they have trees in the refinement stage. Only when Steve is able to buy someone’s collection does he have truly advanced trees for sale.

But, the point I’m trying to make is when they see my JBP with needles less than an inch long, and they haven’t been cut, and the branches are dense and full that they see what it is they’re trying to achieve. I’ll get comments like “That’s the best Mugo Pine I’ve ever seen!” I’ll say, “That’s not a Mugo, it’s a Japanese Black Pine”. Next comes, “That can’t be a JBP, the needles are so short!” I tell them, “Good thing you’re here today, because I’m going to teach you how it’s done!”

So now when I show them the techniques, they can see it actually works. If I didn’t bring the tree to the workshop, it would be hard for the students to visualize how their trees could look in the future.

I understood what you were trying to say.. I think you may be over estimating the quality of trees in the “average” hoddyist’s colelctions a bit. Not to say there is no value in seeing people work on more advanced stock, just that with demos done for “small time” local clubs, especially those with crowds of beginners and people incapable of making substantial financial investments in trees- it makes sense to show them how to take some grown out piece of material from a nursery and START it on the journey.

 

[chicago1980]

You need to think further north lol......a couple of real sleepers up here, not looking for fame or fortune, both are extremely versed at yamadori collection and their trees are in high demand for the Portland Bonsai Village big names and many regular practioners all through Washington state and southern B.C. Over the last decade or so folks like Michael, Boon, Matt, Dan R., Bobby C. have seeked them out for their trees.
G.

Those BC folks have some amazing trees!

 

[River's Edge]

I understood what you were trying to say.. I think you may be over estimating the quality of trees in the “average” hoddyist’s colelctions a bit. Not to say there is no value in seeing people work on more advanced stock, just that with demos done for “small time” local clubs, especially those with crowds of beginners and people incapable of making substantial financial investments in trees- it makes sense to show them how to take some grown out piece of material from a nursery and START it on the journey.

Ah, the crux of the matter. Perhaps it makes more sense to focus on selecting better material in the beginning so the journey leads somewhere and they do not quit in frustration. Seriously how often can you actually find good bonsai material in a local nursery? Even in a dedicated bonsai nursery one has to sort through many trees to find the better material.

 

[Vance Wood]

Ah, the crux of the matter. Perhaps it makes more sense to focus on selecting better material in the beginning so the journey leads somewhere and they do not quit in frustration. Seriously how often can you actually find good bonsai material in a local nursery? Even in a dedicated bonsai nursery one has to sort through many trees to find the better material.

Assuming that to be true, your belief that finding decent material in a nursery is an impossibility leaves the beginner being told that if you cannot afford or are not capable of collecting Yamadori your self you are totally wasting your time -----and ours as well. I know you did not say this in those words buy your above post seems to indicate that's what you believe. Your up front question: Seriously how often can you actually find good bonsai material in a local nursery? Often enough to keep me interested. It is not easy and demands just about as much dedication to the hunt that you need to exercise at 10,000 ft. My entire collection is nursery trees and I know some of you may be snickering beneath your breath; "yeah and it shows". but the fact remains I have a few trees that I have been told stand up to some of the better collected trees they have seen. Material is what you make it. I have seen some junk made of trees collected from the mountains. Just because they are old does not make them good. Anybody know what a coprolite is, that's pretty old too.

When you live in the PNW it is an easy thing to find where it is allowed to collect Yamidori. For many of the rest of us it is not directly possible, and some are tending to make exclusive groups that only the select can attain to.

 

[milehigh_7]

Seriously how often can you actually find good bonsai material in a local nursery?

It's not as hard as folks make it out to be.

 

[Adair M]

I understood what you were trying to say.. I think you may be over estimating the quality of trees in the “average” hoddyist’s colelctions a bit. Not to say there is no value in seeing people work on more advanced stock, just that with demos done for “small time” local clubs, especially those with crowds of beginners and people incapable of making substantial financial investments in trees- it makes sense to show them how to take some grown out piece of material from a nursery and START it on the journey.

Ok, I’ll grant you that. But, I have little interest in seeing a $20 Procumbens styled for the umpteenth time! The problem is, when the club sees these demos over and over, they think that’s what bonsai is. It’s like they stay at the beginners level forever. There are members of our local club who really aren’t any better now than they were back in the 1980’s! They don’t cut back, they pinch, pinch, pinch, they don’t get taper in their trunks and branches, they have no interior foliage, Silohette is too dense, potted poorly...

So... people like myself find there’s no reason to attend. I try to teach people, they argue with me. They’ll say, “I’ve been doing it this way for 30 years!” And I’ll say, “well, you’ve been doing it wrong for 30 years! I did too. We were all taught wrong!” Then they go, “I was taught by John Naka!” Then me: “I was, too. A lot of things John taught were wrong! I’ve had to relearn most everything that I thought I knew!” And that blows their minds because they think Naka’s Bonsai Techniques 1 And 2 are the Bible of bonsai.

So, if the club brings in the old headliners to go the same thing tjey’ve done over and over, I’ll pass. Bring in some of the young bucks, like Sherrard, Andrade, Reel, Coffey, Bjorn, or Neal, then I’ll go.

 

[jacob letoile]

Material is what you make it.

Amen