Trunk thickening methods?

[Kevster]

So I have been wondering. When everyone talks about or asks how to thickening up a truck the answer is always to plant it in the ground and let it grow out. And I understand that. The taller and more branches that grow and grow long the thicker the trunk must be to support it.

But what if you have the tree at the hight you want or want to grow out a cutting into a shohin sized tree. Why not keep it short by pruning or pinching out new growth at the top and just grow the side branches long? This would also promote back budding which would cause more branching leading to faster thickening.

Does anyone do this now?

Thanks in advance,
Kevin

 

[rockm]

You can, but by limiting the top growth (where most trees put on the most growth) you rein in the trunk's resources and, as a result, the pace at which it thickens. If a tree is the "right height" but isn't adequately thickened, it means the tree is NOT the right height. Height reductions are easily done WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT. Working with a tree that's the "right height" is backward. If it needs more trunk diameter, then it needs to grow UP and out, THEN it's chopped back to height. Trying to do it in reverse means you're working mostly in opposition to what the tree "wants" to do...

 

[Poink88]

Kevster, I do.

Have you looked at all trees with inverse taper? It is caused by callusing of a branch or branches....the more branch at one point, the more it bulges. I take advantage of that and encourage multiple (sacrificial) branches where I want the trunk or branch to thicken. Other disagree but it works for me.

Oh yeah, I am a pincher and believe in developing character and movement in my trunk & branch that way. I don't have any tall trees in my yard. It works for me but YMMV and note that I am a newbie (in case others discount me by this fact...better put it oit in the open now).

 

[rockm]

"the more branch at one point, the more it bulges. I take advantage of that and encourage multiple (sacrificial) branches where I want the trunk or branch to thicken."

The thing to keep in mind is that the ENTIRE TOP of the tree in smaller trees IS a sacrifice branch. Reducing the leader when you want to get more diameter in the trunk slows the thickening process considerably for the trunk below. A single upright leader produces even, fast, thickening in the lower part of the trunk. Remove it and if forces the tree to divide its energy among several new leaders that aren't individually dominant, that means you will get bulges, inverse taper and other things where those leaders divide.

The fastest way to develop diameter and even taper in a smaller trunk is to let the top go unhindered, UNTIL the desired diameter of the lower trunk is achieved.

 

[capnk]

Other considerations:
1. You need sacrifice branches to grow very strong, a that usually means they will have longer internodes and undesirable traits for a finished tree.
2. You could allow several branches at one level, create an intentional reverse taper, and then air layer at the bulge.
3. If you are growing a classic shohin, you don't really want a huge trunk anyway. Here's a shohin zelkova, about 6 inches tall. It has the proportions of a full size tree.

 

[Kevster]

Thanks everyone.
Rock I now see and understand the top part of the tree as a sacrifice branch!

I was manly wondering if the other was has been given a fair trial or if everyone just follows what has always been done because that's what worked.

Poink88 you say you do this. What type of trees are you using this technique on?

I started a test in the spring on branches using this method of increasing girth.
I used 2 Jap Maples and 2 Ficus B. The maple branches had no or very little increase in girth. Maybe next spring it will prove different once it pushes out all it's new growth.
The ficus B.... I went to the extreme. I shortened the branch to the length I wanted then defoliated both trees except for the branches to be thickened. In the 4-5 months that past the ficus branch I shortened has had the best results. This was only one test and it could have been a fluk. Just giving my observation.

Poink88 the place in Hawaii that sells schiffelara use this method to increase their trunk girth. They let them grow out chop them down to force new branches then cut those down. They get huge trunks in a short time because of this method.

 

[Poink88]

Kevster,

I do this on all my trees (trident maple, logwood, neea, yaupon holly, boxwood, cedar elm, tx sage, tintillo, tx ebony, tx persimmon, azalea, fukien tea, japanese blueberry, etc., etc.) but being a newbie I have no documented growth to boast yet. I know the small branches are thickening much faster.

My belief is, you can start building the primary & secondary branches (even further) while building girt...just understand the tree physiology, know what you are doing, and have a plan. Others believe it has to be one or the other and they may be right...until I failed, I will keep doing it this/my way.

 

[Attila Soos]

It all depends on how fast you want to develop the trunk. Using trident maple as an example, I have some growing in the ground, that I intentionally kept small and short, just because I want to have different sizes when building a landscape. Even after 15 years, the trunks remained remarcably thin (around 1 inch in diameter). With others, I let them grow out tall and then chopped back. Those maples have the same age, but they are triple the size of the former ones (3 to 4 inches in diameter).

So, it all depends on how much time you want to spend on them. They are stunted trees in nature, that were never tall, and yet, they have a thick trunk. But it took them centuries to become like that.

Given enough time, every single seedling in this world will become a timeless masterpiece bonsai, if only kept small. The key is "given enough time".
The problem is, we don't have enough time. To me, 99% of bonsai creation is about time management. The remaining 1% is easy. This is figurative talk, of course, there are no hard numbers here. But I am trying to make a point.

If you think about it, we are trying to create a tree that looks very old, in a FRACTION of the time that it takes in nature. So, you have to cheat, using artificial methods. If you just grow a little tree in a bonsai pot, that's almost like a tree growing in a soil pocket on a rock. It will take just as much time as in nature. On the other hand, if you grow out and chop, then grow out and chop again, then you are cheating nature and reduce time by a large margin.

Your assessment to grow the side branches long, is correct, in that they will be essential to create a nice taper. But growing ONLY the side branches, and keeping the top very short, will take away a most of the vigour that a tree has, and the whole process will slow down. You have to give some room for the top to grow, as well. With experience, you will figure out how much, depending on the species.

 

[Attila Soos]

Also, there is another issue to consider, when growing a tree in the ground. The stage of development of your tree.
At the seedling stage, you just let the whole tree grow free, until the trunk reached a significant thickness. Then you chop.

At later stages, when the trunk is getting thick and is showing some taper, you keep the side branches as long as possible, and use SOME restriction at the top. Then, as you get closer and closer to the desired thickness and taper, you use more and more restrictions on the top and keep increasing the taper, using the side branches.

So, each stage is a little different, you don't approach the same way a seedling, and a semi-finished trunk. Also, you may have large scars that you need to cover, so you take that into your plan. There is no formula that can be used for all trees, in all stages.

 

[Mitty]

I have tried making two trees by air layering the top part of the bonsai . Then I get a short trunk and a shohin bonsai. Then by chopping the trunk that is left and allowing this to grow I get another Shohin. While this does not greatly broaden the trunks , the resultant 2 shohin bonsai are more in proportion . And this should create more growth for both newly created trees.

 

[Giga]

Plant it in the ground, chop low, let grow unhindered, root work in spring, planted back in the ground, chop it low, allow to grow. Rinse and repeat till desired thickness n' taper. Plant in a flat, start the refinement staged. It's a slow and rewarding road.