Trunk chop on large spruce

[CrippyFreaky24]

First just for context I am not talking about collecting the tree at this time.

Does anyone know/have advice on if Norway spruces can take fairly small trunk chops well and how big/spread their roots are? I found a stunted growth spruce, however still around 10’ tall however it’s base is fairly thick. Maybe around 5 inches. I know this would be a pretty hard dig but it’s a nice tree. However I’d probably have to chop the top of it off, which would remove at least 40% of its foliage if not definitely half. I’ve heard mixed opinions on if spruces can take a chop this large, Seeing people say absolutely not and yes they can. So I am posting this thread asking for some more answers that could possibly help me out with that. And I’m not sure if a spruce this large is even collectable as it root system might just be too large. Thank you.

 

[Shibui]

Root system generally depends on soil type and climate. In dry, sandy or rocky soils roots are usually extensive but in more dense or wet soils or rocky pockets, roots will usually be close to the trunk and much easier to collect.
Permission is paramount before setting out to collect any tree. Nobody has the right to steal trees from public or private land. I note you haven't given a location. Not sure if that's to stay incognito or to stay hidden from consequences?

Having said that, never underestimate how much you will need to do to collect a tree. 5" trunk is quite a big tree so think carefully before deciding to try. That size and species is not really a suitable project to start with. I'd advise get some experience with easier species and smaller sizes before risking what sounds like a special tree.
From experience:

• Trunks are usually bigger than you've estimated (trunks seem to expand as you remove soil around them?)
• Roots will be far more extensive than you guessed.
• Hole will need to be around twice the size you estimated in order to dig under and cut vertical roots. Also need to fill that hole after removing the tree. Please don't leave a mess when collecting as that gives us all a bad name and can result in refusing permission for future digs.
• The trunk, roots and any soil left on roots will weigh around twice what you guessed. Even lifting the tree out of the hole will be difficult, let alone carrying it back to the vehicle.
• Container will need to be at least haff as big again as you hoped, sometimes double first guess.

If it survives transplant you'll need a monster bonsai pot - cost, handling, regular repotting, etc.

Spruce are not on my collecting schedule so I can't help with survival rates or techniques for your tree.

 

[CrippyFreaky24]

Root system generally depends on soil type and climate. In dry, sandy or rocky soils roots are usually extensive but in more dense or wet soils or rocky pockets, roots will usually be close to the trunk and much easier to collect.
Permission is paramount before setting out to collect any tree. Nobody has the right to steal trees from public or private land. I note you haven't given a location. Not sure if that's to stay incognito or to stay hidden from consequences?

Having said that, never underestimate how much you will need to do to collect a tree. 5" trunk is quite a big tree so think carefully before deciding to try. That size and species is not really a suitable project to start with. I'd advise get some experience with easier species and smaller sizes before risking what sounds like a special tree.
From experience:

• Trunks are usually bigger than you've estimated (trunks seem to expand as you remove soil around them?)
• Roots will be far more extensive than you guessed.
• Hole will need to be around twice the size you estimated in order to dig under and cut vertical roots. Also need to fill that hole after removing the tree. Please don't leave a mess when collecting as that gives us all a bad name and can result in refusing permission for future digs.
• The trunk, roots and any soil left on roots will weigh around twice what you guessed. Even lifting the tree out of the hole will be difficult, let alone carrying it back to the vehicle.
• Container will need to be at least haff as big again as you hoped, sometimes double first guess.

If it survives transplant you'll need a monster bonsai pot - cost, handling, regular repotting, etc.

Spruce are not on my collecting schedule so I can't help with survival rates or techniques for your tree.

Hey shibui.

I thought I put it on my profile, changes might of not saved when I did it though. I live in Pennsylvania, and the soil where the tree is is very dark, fairly dense and usually wet, depending on if there’s a drought or not. The pine tree is in a little grove of them on my property, and it’s possible the tree could be accessed with an excavator to dig it out but that would probably make the job harder as there are trees surrounding the tree and I’d need to be careful with their roots too. I agree however I’m not sure this would be a suitable collection task for a beginner. And most likely I would need to build my own box for it or find a very large bin for it. This tree has potential and I wouldn’t want to kill it due to being a beginner.

 

[Cruiser]

In general, Norway spruce and other Picea tend to grow shallow spreading root systems instead of deep ones. This habit is one of the reasons why they are so prone to fire and wind throw. Using an excavator to dig your tree up would likely damage the root systems of other nearby spruces.
If the soil is rich, uncrowded, and not too rocky there’s likely some decent rootage close to the trunk and not unreasonably deep.

Are there vigorous branches growing below the location you’d like to chop? I think that would have a strong impact on the trees ability to survive a large reduction. Could you get away with chopping a little higher and then shortening the trunk another year?

 

[CrippyFreaky24]

In general, Norway spruce and other Picea tend to grow shallow spreading root systems instead of deep ones. This habit is one of the reasons why they are so prone to fire and wind throw. Using an excavator to dig your tree up would likely damage the root systems of other nearby spruces.
If the soil is rich, uncrowded, and not too rocky there’s likely some decent rootage close to the trunk and not unreasonably deep.

Are there vigorous branches growing below the location you’d like to chop? I think that would have a strong impact on the trees ability to survive a large reduction. Could you get away with chopping a little higher and then shortening the trunk another year?

It could be possible to trunk chop and collect it another year but I’m worried if I trunk chop off the top growth while it’s still surrounded by pine trees it may find it hard to get enough sun and it would die before collection. But it may die anyways without collecting it because the top growth still doesn’t get much sun and it may just eventually die because it has a lack of sun. Not much of the growth on the tree is vigorous in any part. The bulk of the foliage on the tree is definitely the top, and the midsection, which is around 5 feet up. I think if I did trunk chop it, as you said, it would have to be in sections to let the tree gradually recover. Cutting the top section off would be cutting off around 40%-half of the foliage. Then it would be easier to work with the tree even if it still has the full midsection.

 

[Cruiser]

Got any pictures of the tree and immediate area around it?

Norway spruce are shade tolerant, so it’s unlikely to die if left alone among the pines. They can persist many years in the understory waiting for their time to shine. But it wont become vigorous until the canopy opens up.

Based on what you’ve said, I wouldn’t chop it yet. If possible, you should prune the vegetation around the spruce so it gets more light. It will get stronger. Then maybe take some off the top next year.

 

[CrippyFreaky24]

Got any pictures of the tree and immediate area around it?

Norway spruce are shade tolerant, so it’s unlikely to die if left alone among the pines. They can persist many years in the understory waiting for their time to shine. But it wont become vigorous until the canopy opens up.

Based on what you’ve said, I wouldn’t chop it yet. If possible, you should prune the vegetation around the spruce so it gets more light. It will get stronger. Then maybe take some off the top next year.

Sorry for delay on a photo. It’s a little unclear how the top foliage looks because it’s covered by the foliage of another tree. I don’t think there’s much way to trim surrounding foliage to get it out of the shade.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

There is a huge likelyhood of a large taproot digging down; the tree is near a slope.

Dig around a little before you consider working this plant. It might be uncollectable.

 

[Maros]

Sorry for delay on a photo. It’s a little unclear how the top foliage looks because it’s covered by the foliage of another tree. I don’t think there’s much way to trim surrounding foliage to get it out of the shade.

The tree is in my opinion in a shaded location and after chopping not enough light will reach the rest of the foliage. It's a rather risky endeavor with that particular tree in that location. If the location is sunny I would not be afraid to chop it. Secondly, the tree does not have a good enough taper. Now it looks OK, but after shortening it to let's say 1-meter tapering would be minimal. I would personally look for trees with better prospects.

 

[Cruiser]

Sorry for delay on a photo. It’s a little unclear how the top foliage looks because it’s covered by the foliage of another tree. I don’t think there’s much way to trim surrounding foliage to get it out of the shade.

If there’s no way to get more sun on it I would leave it be. Shade-suppressed trees are not the best candidates to dig up. They just aren’t strong enough. They’re either on the road to death or in the case of shade-tolerant species (yours), in standby mode. (It will still grow slowly but is waiting for conditions to change for it to take off).

It looks like there are oaks or maples around it? If so, then take comfort in the fact that the spruce is getting more sun in the winter.
Those other trees were there first. The spruce was able to establish under them and will continue to grow, cm by cm until a wind or ice storm or logger opens things up around it (“release”). Once that happens it will be given better conditions to grow vigorously.