Topsy Turvy

[A Random User]

Thought the following advice might be worth posting... It is something that Flys a bit in the face of conventional wisdom and I am sure there are folks that are going to say this perhaps is some BS... but, none the less it is the thought process I have come to understand over my time working with bonsai, and what I come to understand as being probably the most important thing that I have ever learned and could pass on, and where I often see new folks struggling, and older folks saying not to do! But, it works!

This is to design a tree for today, with the insight of where one would like to take the tree tomorrow...

It is always, always, always, easier to grow out material, than it is to chase material back! I don't think one can say this enough! So, when picking out new material to work on take this into consideration!

One can design a tree growing it out and see the tree to a completed stage of being shown in half the time one can if one has to chase back a tree. Often this is one of the biggest mistakes that for me I see people constantly repeating. Unless a piece of material is just so amazing it is worth taking the time to chase back, which 70 to 80 percent of what most are working on is this is not the case, why then start oneself off in the negative?

So, it is my advice, for what it is worth, that when picking out material, one pays careful attention to not only the trunk and the roots, but also the main branching, finer branching, and foliage and where is it, what condition is it in, and can one make something out of it now, or will it have to be grown out, or worse yet, as I have said chased back... the more work one has to do, the more time involved.

Now, sometimes when picking out this kinda material that is ready to go so to speak, one might have to pay more money, because someone has already spent time advancing the tree... often, though one is able to find very workable material, for very little dough.

The trick is to examine the material, and ask oneself how can I make the best tree out of what is before me, here and now! And does this material have it in it to make something good today out of it? If the material has a thin trunk, unless one is designing a literati or business out of it, one needs to look and see if there is branching and foliage to make a small tree that is in proportion to the scale of the trunk. So, if the size of the trunk is only 3/4 inches in diameter, how about looking at the height of the tree being 5 inches? This would make a pretty powerful tree... so, see if the branching and foliage support such a design.

Designing a tree for today, means one is already off on the right path... you have set forth a tree that can and only get better... the tree is going to grow, and will have plenty of chances over it's lifetime to be improved upon.

 

[A Random User]

I want to further examine this discussion and go into some areas of detail where this practice might also be put into place...

With tropicals, it is quite a common practice to defoliate a tree, to build ramification or more finer branching, which ok, I get... but in theory this really is a practice of chasing back, right? One removes leaves to try and push out new growth farther back. Would it not be a better approach to cut back further on the branch towards the trunk, seeing that usually one leaves the branches to long to begin with, allow two branches to grow, cut these, allow to more to grow, cut these etc... as mentioned, growing out is always faster. Not to mention one will end up with much more ramification.

This works obviously with a whole bunch of other types of material as well... folks are always defoliating Bald Cypress... cut back to the closest nodes and grow out, will save your selves a bunch of time!

If one designs a smaller tree for today, rather than a big monstrosity, even if one has a large trunk, the tree will look awesome now, and will only improve as it grows out, to where you would like it to be tomorrow!

Since we are on this subject, it is my personal view that defoliating is used way to much in tropicals... I get some of the reasons why one would want to do this... for instance with some trees like buttonwoods they have minimal roots to begin with, so when repotting it is best, to help recover, or bald cypress to get a nice new flush of growth... bougie to help flower, etc... but to wire and style a tree there is no need really. To build ramification, one can cut back. Each time one defoliates, one is hindering the forward momentum of the trees natural growing process.

 

[A Random User]

In junipers, if one can design a smaller tree, and allow for a future design of the tree to be bigger... it will save pruning and chasing back, not to mention the health of the tree will be stronger because of the trees growth not constantly being hindered, but also by naturally letting the tree to grow out, the foliage will turn to adult foliage that much easier.

Now obviously with junipers the health of the tree needs to be considered, and one might have to take the tree down to a smaller size in stages...

 

[A Random User]

I briefly touched on this with the second post with bougies... all flowering plants usually will flower better and more if allowed to grow out. So cutting back hard on these types of trees is often a necessity.

 

[A Random User]

There are many more areas one could go into... the whole thought process behind this thread, is that for me the idea of a nice bonsai taking years to develop is true... however, for me I see most of the years being wasted on the thought that if something doesn't take years to develop it isn't done right, when nine times out of ten, simple mistakes are made through the not understanding the basic principal of a tree wants to grow, why then is it being confined , and this growth being hindered... let the tree do the work!

Why is one starting the tree off where you want it to end, then trying to chase it back? Most of the trees I see, it is my personal opinion, are to big to begin with from the first initial styling. If you want a tree to end up at 16 inches, start it off at 8... just my wooden nickel! Something to chew on! Have a good weekend everyone!

 

[aml1014]

I want to further examine this discussion and go into some areas of detail where this practice might also be put into place...

With tropicals, it is quite a common practice to defoliate a tree, to build ramification or more finer branching, which ok, I get... but in theory this really is a practice of chasing back, right? One removes leaves to try and push out new growth farther back. Would it not be a better approach to cut back further on the branch towards the trunk, seeing that usually one leaves the branches to long to begin with, allow two branches to grow, cut these, allow to more to grow, cut these etc... as mentioned, growing out is always faster. Not to mention one will end up with much more ramification.

This works obviously with a whole bunch of other types of material as well... folks are always defoliating Bald Cypress... cut back to the closest nodes and grow out, will save your selves a bunch of time!

If one designs a smaller tree for today, rather than a big monstrosity, even if one has a large trunk, the tree will look awesome now, and will only improve as it grows out, to where you would like it to be tomorrow!

Since we are on this subject, it is my personal view that defoliating is used way to much in tropicals... I get some of the reasons why one would want to do this... for instance with some trees like buttonwoods they have minimal roots to begin with, so when repotting it is best, to help recover, or bald cypress to get a nice new flush of growth... bougie to help flower, etc... but to wire and style a tree there is no need really. To build ramification, one can cut back. Each time one defoliates, one is hindering the forward momentum of the trees natural growing process.

My only question to you is. Have you ever tried to wire a fully refined ficus with its leaves? Believe me it's not fun and you cause some damage so I figure why not see exactly what I'm doing. I wanna see the branch structure not the foliage when refining a tree.

 

[A Random User]

My only question to you is. Have you ever tried to wire a fully refined ficus with its leaves? Believe me it's not fun and you cause some damage so I figure why not see exactly what I'm doing. I wanna see the branch structure not the foliage when refining a tree.

Thanks for the reply and the question! Other than the random instances as previously mentioned of b-woods removal of foliage for repoting and bougies removal to help produce flowerng... which in all essence could really be solved through cutting back although the new growth often returns shooting straight up, I wire everything with foliage and thorns still on it...

I work alot with junipers as well, which really makes one pay attention to what they are doing, not so easy all the time having to wire in in out of foliage, but with them one isn't able to remove the foliage even if one wanted too... so, one just learns how to manage! Thanks, have a good weekend!

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

lol my beloved brother.... you know this is true because you live in Florida....lol This is very true because of where you live... it becomes less true the more north you go. I will quote my own teacher and say.... Show me a great trunk... I can grow a top.

Much love as ever,

V

 

[A Random User]

lol my beloved brother.... you know this is true because you live in Florida....lol This is very true because of where you live... it becomes less true the more north you go. I will quote my own teacher and say.... Show me a great trunk... I can grow a top.

Much love as ever,

V

I understand, and agree with what you and your teacher are saying! If one has an awesome trunk, then yes it would be worth the time invested to either chase back or graft and grow out, seeing that this is the prize of the tree. Also, if one starts with a smaller tree, but designs for the larger picture, as the tree grows out one is in essence designing the top! So, we are world's apart, but yet speaking the same language!
Hope all is well with you! And thanks for the reply, good to see you around!

 

[mat]

My only question to you is. Have you ever tried to wire a fully refined ficus with its leaves? Believe me it's not fun and you cause some damage so I figure why not see exactly what I'm doing. I wanna see the branch structure not the foliage when refining a tree.

Stacy - thanks for sharing your thoughts.

The point quoted above is well made. For me, defoliating some tropical trees is a necessary part of the styling process, as they can quickly become bushes. I do try to leave some branch tips/terminal buds where i can, but I often have to do a lot of work with the little scissors before I can even tell what's going on with the branches.

 

[A Random User]

Stacy - thanks for sharing your thoughts.

The point quoted above is well made. For me, defoliating some tropical trees is a necessary part of the styling process, as they can quickly become bushes. I do try to leave some branch tips/terminal buds where i can, but I often have to do a lot of work with the little scissors before I can even tell what's going on with the branches.

Thanks for the reply! Mat, I get what you and Aml1040 are getting at, and I am not saying not to defoliate... I was merely pointing out that one does not have to do this in order to wire a tree. Ideally the goal of any action we preform on a tree is to try and do the least amount of damage possible we can do to the tree in order to get the job done, that we need to perform. So, of course if one ends up breaking off tons of foliage, or breaking branching as a result of trying to wire and causing more damage than setting back the tree by defoliating, then this is counterproductive, and it would be best to defoliate then.

My objection more is the train of thought that it should be a common practice to do so in order to preform an action such as wiring. Which from my own personal belief is not a correct approach, for it adds undue stress and if one can wire without doing this, they should.

When I mentioned in my post to Aml1040, about wiring junipers, it wasn't to say how great I am, orhow great i am at wiring on the contrary, it was more to point out that obviously with them you cannot remove foliage to wire, so one just learns and trains oneself how to work around the foliage and see the structure on is creating within the tree, through looking past the all the foliage. If one can learn to do this on juniper, one can certainly do it on a ficus.

 

[M. Frary]

Pines are another that you learn to work around foliage when wiring.

 

[A Random User]

Pines are another that you learn to work around foliage when wiring.

Yes, they are! And it is a pain sometimes especially when first wiring and trying to separate branching if the needle length is rather long still.

 

[A Random User]

Thanks everyone for the chat!!!
Been extremely busy all week, and I am hoping to have a relaxing weekend! Hope everyone else does the same!

 

[mat]

I'm with you. Well put. Don't stress trees un-necessarily. I like this quote "Ideally the goal of any action we preform on a tree is to try and do the least amount of damage possible we can do to the tree in order to get the job done".

 

[M. Frary]

Whenever I see the word Topsy I always think of Cotton Hills crazy old friend from WWII. From King of the Hill.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Your titles makes me think of our classic Mr. Men library bound set from the UK. Anyone else go down that rabbit hole?

 

[Txhorticulture]

This works obviously with a whole bunch of other types of material as well... folks are always defoliating Bald Cypress... cut back to the closest nodes and grow out, will save your selves a bunch of time!

I'm glad you mentioned bald cypress

Before fairly recently getting into bonsai I was and still am to some extent a novelty plant collector. On another forum I follow a member posted pictures of his peve minaret bald cypress. It was a big tall tree he shears back to the trunk every year. Every year it produces new vigorous branches all up and down the trunk.

I guess what I am getting it is I don't understand the conventional bald cypress bonsai techniques. People go into a swamp and collect a crummy tree because it's old shove it into a round bonsai pot and fret about the three branches that make up the ' flat top ' crown

First I don't get the collecting of an old tree eeking out an existence in a swamp when that same species can grow 3 to 5 feet a year in a pot, and is ubiquitous in the nursery trade cheap.

Second that tree will make branches all over the place if you let it grow and get healthy before stuffing it into a bonsai pot. They survive in swamps - they grow into much better trees where the soil drains periodically. Why not make bonsai that replicate what the tree can be as opposed to what it is sometimes found as.

Here is an analogy I ve seen a lot of oak trees near power lines that have been sheared and contorted and abused that still survive. I wouldn't make an oak bonsai look like one. Anyway I guess I'm saYing is my 'topsy turvy' take abut these trees is that they should look more like this .... I took these make teno years ago central texas.