The size of bonsai

[sorce]

big one has more potential than the tiny on

All the potential I see is in....
A much smaller tree!

IMO....

Every tree has potential....period.

That said.
It's about the difficulty in transforming it to utilize that potential.

The little one can be grown and clipped and slowly potted up ....easy....

To make that big one unproportionatley fucked is gonna take chainsaws rebar and a shit load of aftercare...
The pads have to be thinned and generally reworked into branching and not topiary....

So....

In years and work....

The little one is better faster and easier.
This is 90% Fact.
10% for those who like to make shitty trees, which, FTR is completely OK....I just won't be moved by them.

Sorce

 

[jeanluc83]

As @sorce eluded to, the way the tree is displayed has a big impact on how it is viewed.

For the sake of argument, let's compare 2 trees.

The first tree is slightly below eye level and the viewer is standing a few feet back. The entire tree can be viewed. In a show setting this is how the tree might be viewed.

The second tree is being held up at eye level and being viewed very closely. The small details are very easy to see. But this is not how it would be show in a show. It would be on a stand a couple feet away. You would not necessary see the details in the same way you could in the picture.

When considering how trees are viewed in a show it is a little easier to see why larger trees have an advantage over small trees.



When both trees are viewed at the same vantage point much of the detail that makes the shohin more compelling is lost.

If I had to pick from the two based on the current images I would pick the shohin. It has much more character and tells a much better story.

If I had to pick based on potential I would pick the larger tree. The foliage could be reworked to create the more wild image that the dead wood shows. It could become a very powerful tree.

 

[namnhi]

Why do you think it has more potential? I would say the small one has more potential.

....because I think the big one can be improved a lot with time. Time is something we all have. I think the tiny one is already at its peak. You won't be able to do much with it. Also it is just too small to be appreciated by the masses. Don't get me wrong as I said the big one is fugly.

 

[Bonsai toto]

One should not compare between big and small tree at the beginning. They are being appreciates in different way. Its all about ones Taste(including other factor such as hardiness zone, available species that suit for what size etc... u name it.)
There are pros and cons for both big and small trees. And oh yea, if one to compare big or small...please choose an example for both in terms of equally quality, a true bonsais will not choose(nor to compare them) or say which is better. Appreciation is important, helps one to block all the negative thought in viewing any trees regardless size, species.

 

[MichaelS]

One should not compare between big and small tree at the beginning. They are being appreciates in different way. Its all about ones Taste(including other factor such as hardiness zone, available species that suit for what size etc... u name it.)
There are pros and cons for both big and small trees. And oh yea, if one to compare big or small...please choose an example for both in terms of equally quality, a true bonsais will not choose(nor to compare them) or say which is better. Appreciation is important, helps one to block all the negative thought in viewing any trees regardless size, species.

You seem to be missing the point of this thread. That is..... that some people prefer big trees to small ones even if the big ones are of lesser quality. In other words...to some people, size is a mark of quality.

 

[MichaelS]

....because I think the big one can be improved a lot with time. Time is something we all have. I think the tiny one is already at its peak. You won't be able to do much with it. Also it is just too small to be appreciated by the masses. Don't get me wrong as I said the big one is fugly.

Potential means the height of excellence something can achieve not how far it has to go to get there. I can only go by what I see though. It may be that if you turn it around and angle it so the deadwood is not the main feature and there are good branches and a nice trunk etc; it will indeed have greater potential but we don't know that. The small is nowhere near it's peak in my opinion.

 

[Bonsai toto]

You seem to be missing the point of this thread. That is..... that some people prefer big trees to small ones even if the big ones are of lesser quality. In other words...to some people, size is a mark of quality.

That's where lack of appreciation and cause of taste comes in.
I understand and observe the same thing..Even here in Malaysia, a lot of bonsais here prefer big. some are good and some are just big and proud of it just to be big with lack of quality(maybe lack of exp in creating good bonsai ? ) who knows.
cheers

 

[MichaelS]

="sorce, post: 500464, member: 12599"]



Every tree has potential....period.

Don't know about ''period''. Some have more than others...

 

[music~maker]

Nice idea for a thread.

I tend to prefer medium to larger trees myself, but for a very practical reason. I prefer natural looking trees, and the larger size gives me more room to work with. For me, smaller trees are like deadwood features - I can absolutely appreciate them when they work, but when they don't they tend to ruin the sense of scale for me.

But honestly, the same goes for the large ones too. Large for the sake of large doesn't work for me either. That larger one you showed as an example is good long-term raw material, but that little one you used as an example is incredible. In their current state, the little one wins hands-down. But it might be difficult to keep that little one looking that good over time whereas you probably would have a lot more long-term options with the larger one. In it's current state, though, I'm not much of a fan of the big one. Not only does the canopy look like a topiary, but I don't really like the deadwood either. So that's two strikes against it in it's current form.

The one in my profile photo is a little one too. It's a seiju that fits in the palm of my hand, and it's probably one of my more realistic looking trees. I love that one. It's also one of the smallest trees I own, and definitely an outlier next to most of my other ones. Most of my trees are probably in the 12-36" range, and although they tend to be much longer term projects, I feel I can make them look more like actual trees I see in nature that way. For me, it's all about working towards a realistic sense of scale.

In a show/demo/bonsai garden setting, my eye does tend to gravitate towards the larger ones, but for the same reasons. The best large trees tend to look more natural to me than the best small ones. When done well, the level of detail in a highly refined large tree is pretty difficult to match in a small one. So for me, I guess it's mostly practical based on my style preference. But I love it when I find a great small tree where I can lose myself in the details. I just find those to be a lot more rare.

 

[MichaelS]

But I love it when I find a great small tree where I can lose myself in the details. I just find those to be a lot more rare.

Me too. I am getting back into Serrisa for that very reason. You can get incredible detail on a very small tree and an aged look quickly too. Unfortunately they can be touchy....

 

[Anthony]

Mike, on our side the issue was -------------- porous, bottom Bonsai pots.
This is for the Chinese serissa, which is dense of leaf.
Likes full sun.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[chicago1980]

Larger tree.

Better base
Better deadwood
Better movement from the base
More branch choices

Both are lacking in branch placement, but the bigger one looks to have better ramification.

 

[M. Frary]

Larger tree.

Better base
Better deadwood
Better movement from the base
More branch choices

Both are lacking in branch placement, but the bigger one looks to have better ramification.

I'll disagree.
The base on the larger has inverse taper. The little guy doesn't.
The big one is all deadwood. To the point of looking like tanuki. The deadwood on the little gut is tasteful and realistic looking.
The only movement in the lower trunk on the big one is fairly straight except for the twist. The small one gets moving at the dirt.
The big one does have more branches but what's been done with the branches on the small tree are placed more naturally.
As for ramification,sure the big one has more but it's refined to the point of looking like topiary.
Side by side the big tree will be chosen by more people than not. Because of size alone.

 

[Adair M]

The two trees Michael has given us to choose from are so vastly different it’s really impossible to compare them.

The little tree is a “created” tree. That is someone wired it up with wire and left it in. (I don’t know it it’s still in there.). Then carved the Shari.

The Iishi’s do this in California. The owner of Plant City goes out there every year and brings back a dozen to resell. So, it’s a cute little tree, but it doesn’t knock my socks off.

The big tree may be yamadori, it may be a Tanuki, I can’t tell. The deadwood is painted too white, the pads look like Pom poms. I’m afraid it’s just poorly styled. It could be made into something really good in the right hands.

As for “potential”...

Sure, any tree has potential given enough time and work. The question is, how much time and how much work. Given enough time, that little tree could have a thicker trunk than the big tree! Maybe your great grand children would be impressed.

As for size...

Given two trees of equal “quality”, 99% of the time, the larger tree will win because it just has more visual impact. Unless the larger tree is just “too large”. For me, anything larger than 3 feet (1 meter) tall is too tall. I’ve seen some impressive trees bigger than that, but for me they’re not what I consider “bonsai”.

 

[MichaelS]

"Adair M, post:

The little tree is a “created” tree. That is someone wired it up with wire and left it in. (I don’t know it it’s still in there.).

No you don't leave the wire in and it's normally taken off before it bites too much. That effect is caused by twisting the wood clockwise as you bend. Shimpaku fibres run clockwise looking from the top so that's the way you twist it. If you just bend you don't get the same effect. I do many of these every year.

 

[Adair M]

No you don't leave the wire in and it's normally taken off before it bites too much. That effect is caused by twisting the wood clockwise as you bend. Shimpaku fibres run clockwise looking from the top so that's the way you twist it. If you just bend you don't get the same effect. I do many of these every year.

Cool. Several growers here are doing the “leave the wire” thing.

 

[MichaelS]

the “leave the wire” thing.

An atrocity!

 

[Adair M]

An atrocity!

I agree. But they’re seeing that the Japanese have done it, so it must be right! Lol!

 

[Anthony]

The Japanese pee on the left side, so lets all do it

 

[Pachycaul]

As pointed out in another thread by @just.wing.it , Art Appreciation, so Subjective, the answer to size differences may be, well, subjective. Trees rarely enter themselves in shows, judged or otherwise. The dictates of competitive environments place arbitrary external criteria (started to say 'false' criteria) on bonsai. Trees are manifestation of a life force responding to its environment. Whether its environment is a windswept mountaintop, or my feeble attempts to impose my interpretation of that mountaintop on a quiet resident of my garden bench, matters no one whit to the tree. Granted, skills I can learn and apply do show up in my trees and those can be legitimately judged as having been well or badly applied.

As @sorce pointed out, size matters more and more as we approach both ends of the spectrum, and only as it applies to our relationship with our trees, and then, only in a physical sense. Whether we set about to conjure up that windswept mountaintop with either chain hoists and chainsaws or dental drills and magnifiers, will make the tree neither "better" nor "worse." Our skill in using these tools will determine how successfully we have "captured" those ineffable qualities of time immemorial and all its effects on those touched by it.