The size of bonsai
- Thread starter MichaelS
- Start date
At the National Shohin Show, there was a category for trees larger than Shohin. Shohin being 8 inches or less above the rim. I think the larger category was 12 inches.
There were not very many entries in that larger category. Alan Adair’s larch won Best of Show in that category.
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
Yeah that's not much range, over 8 and under 12. I'd like to see a 8" to 16" or thereabouts category. And have it judged separately.
Rambles
Mame
I wrecked this body over the years. Since I was 30, my rule was If I can't lift it, I don't need it. That said, I do love some of the monster yamadori I see at shows. I just don't want to have to tend them.
Yeah but matters to whom? And why?
For the sake of argument, let's compare 2 trees.
Which do you (anyone) consider the better tree? Not what it could be, but what it is now.
Was perhaps one of the smaller/"better" trees that did not win, YOUR tree?
Yes. But there were others ahead of mine.
I don't have pics but if I get them I will post them.
Bonsai toto
Mame
that small one for sure. if those 2 are the finalist to be choose best in show, that shohin is my bet.
Tycoss
Chumono
I don't have a ton of experience, as many of you do, but the big/small thing seems to be a trade off of ease of care vs. rate of development.
I live in a dry, windy environment with often extreme swings in temperature. Shohin trees of the same species and in the same substrate will dry out much faster, and need protection from heat or cold earlier. They also get overgrown faster.
While probably easier to keep healthy, large trees are slower to develop into convincing proportions, and are more expensive to pot, wire, etc. They take up more room too.
I live in a dry, windy environment with often extreme swings in temperature. Shohin trees of the same species and in the same substrate will dry out much faster, and need protection from heat or cold earlier. They also get overgrown faster.
While probably easier to keep healthy, large trees are slower to develop into convincing proportions, and are more expensive to pot, wire, etc. They take up more room too.
Tycoss
Chumono
The shohin for sure. The crown's movement and style work much better with the movement of the trunk. The deadwood and live areas are much more integrated as well. I like how the deadwood and lime sulphur are not overdone. The first tree looks too much like the crown and deadwood belong on two different trees.
namnhi
Masterpiece
Personally I like the small one but if someone tell me to pick one to keep then I most likely will pick the big one just because the big one has more potential than the tiny one. As far as which one look better, the smaller is the winner. The big one is fugly.
Why do you think it has more potential? I would say the small one has more potential.
They take more time to reach size but they take the same amount of time (not manual work) as small ones to develop dignity. For example, you need the same amount of time (generally speaking) to get to the forth ramification whether the tree is 6 inches or 6 feet.
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
So what you are saying, is for you, size does not matter rather you can be satisfied with superior technique? I say bravo! That is a very openminded and accepting attitude! Perhaps you can be the champion everywhere of those with small wood! ;-)
Pachycaul
Mame
Something that has aided me tremendously in designing and critiquing objects in the world, whether it be bonsai or the product of any other ("artistic") endeavor, is a quality that the Englishman David Pye calls "diversity." Pye, trained as an architect, eventually found his calling as Professor of Furniture Design at The Royal College of Art in London, where he taught for 26 years, the last 11 of which were in furniture design. He died in 1993 at the age of 84.
In his lifetime he authored 2 books which have taught me more about design integrity and what constitutes "quality" as anything else in my sporadic grapplings with education. The Nature and Aesthetics of Design , and The Nature and Art of Workmanship.
Anyway, back to the quality of diversity. The way Pye uses the term is to explain that "every formal element has a maximum and minimum effective range. It can only be 'read'---perceived for what it is--by an observer stationed within those limits." He goes on to state that, "In nature, and in all good design, the diversity in scale of the formal elements is such that at any range, in any light, some elements are on or very near the threshold of visibility..." He felt that threshold of visibility (and comprehension) was very important aesthetically. Furthering his hypothesis, he states that as the observer draws closer to his objective, larger formal elements "drop out and become ineffective as you approach." Replaced, he says, by increasingly smaller elements to engage the eye. Bonsai are most often, though not always, shown in interior architectural spaces. The spatial constraints placed upon both observer and observed by that space favor elements of a certain size. (Between his minimum and maximum "effective range"). Larger trees are more effectively viewed from farther away. As one draws nearer, the larger elements, in Pye's eye (apologies, too good to pass up. It had to be done) "drop out and become ineffective." Unless there is sufficient diversity in scale of all formal elements, the scale shift necessary to be convincing is not present.
Conversely, shohin and mame invite, no, demand close inspection. The physical limitations of display space vs human stature brings elbows into the mix. Smaller scale formal elements demand increasingly fine detail.
The physical presence of bonsai, these tiny living jewels invoking much larger worlds, are invariably placed in relation to our bodies. Whether we are aware of it or not, our confronting anything is sifted through atavistic circuits from "eat or be eaten" days. Is this thing larger or smaller than me? If it falls on me will it harm me or bounce off harmlessly? Most importantly, how close to it do I have to approach to 'read' it? Can I "see" it from here? I firmly believe we, as humans, place more gravitas on objects based on their size in relation to our bodies than we suspect. That fuzzy area of plausibility in bonsai design around age, scale, and more anthropomorphic qualities such as 'tenacity, nobility, dignity' etc. may be more easily relatable to us if it is coming from something that affects architectural space to the same extent that our bodies do.
In his lifetime he authored 2 books which have taught me more about design integrity and what constitutes "quality" as anything else in my sporadic grapplings with education. The Nature and Aesthetics of Design , and The Nature and Art of Workmanship.
Anyway, back to the quality of diversity. The way Pye uses the term is to explain that "every formal element has a maximum and minimum effective range. It can only be 'read'---perceived for what it is--by an observer stationed within those limits." He goes on to state that, "In nature, and in all good design, the diversity in scale of the formal elements is such that at any range, in any light, some elements are on or very near the threshold of visibility..." He felt that threshold of visibility (and comprehension) was very important aesthetically. Furthering his hypothesis, he states that as the observer draws closer to his objective, larger formal elements "drop out and become ineffective as you approach." Replaced, he says, by increasingly smaller elements to engage the eye. Bonsai are most often, though not always, shown in interior architectural spaces. The spatial constraints placed upon both observer and observed by that space favor elements of a certain size. (Between his minimum and maximum "effective range"). Larger trees are more effectively viewed from farther away. As one draws nearer, the larger elements, in Pye's eye (apologies, too good to pass up. It had to be done) "drop out and become ineffective." Unless there is sufficient diversity in scale of all formal elements, the scale shift necessary to be convincing is not present.
Conversely, shohin and mame invite, no, demand close inspection. The physical limitations of display space vs human stature brings elbows into the mix. Smaller scale formal elements demand increasingly fine detail.
The physical presence of bonsai, these tiny living jewels invoking much larger worlds, are invariably placed in relation to our bodies. Whether we are aware of it or not, our confronting anything is sifted through atavistic circuits from "eat or be eaten" days. Is this thing larger or smaller than me? If it falls on me will it harm me or bounce off harmlessly? Most importantly, how close to it do I have to approach to 'read' it? Can I "see" it from here? I firmly believe we, as humans, place more gravitas on objects based on their size in relation to our bodies than we suspect. That fuzzy area of plausibility in bonsai design around age, scale, and more anthropomorphic qualities such as 'tenacity, nobility, dignity' etc. may be more easily relatable to us if it is coming from something that affects architectural space to the same extent that our bodies do.
Joe Dupre'
Omono
Here's my take. If you want to impress people/judges, you have to give them what they prefer. To ask "why?" is to miss the point. Why do I prefer petite brunettes with long black hair over a 5'10" blonde model. Who knows? I just do.
Now, if you are doing bonsai for yourself, grow the size and type of tree you want to. If someone sees/judges it to be good, well that's a plus. If YOU think it's good and expect someone else to feel the same, you may be disappointed.
Now, if you are doing bonsai for yourself, grow the size and type of tree you want to. If someone sees/judges it to be good, well that's a plus. If YOU think it's good and expect someone else to feel the same, you may be disappointed.
Tycoss
Chumono
Yes, but primarily and secondary branching take longer to thicken int proportion with the main trunk. If we try to take two cuttings, one intended for shohin and a thicker one for a full sized tree, the shohin will be ready to display first, all else being equal.
No. What I'm saying is you need to stand back, way back to view my trunk.
Ok, I agree with all this but to add that when we view bonsai at an exhibition, there is a certain flexibility to how far back or how close we can choose to observe the piece even though they are side by side. We instinctively stand back to look a large specimen and move in close for a small one therefore we should still be able to determine the relative qualities of each entry. We then could move in more closely to a large tree and examine individual elements and further determine their quality separately. It only takes one glaringly bad or obvious element to establish that the whole is inferior - or leaves you wanting in some way. To me anyway.
So in your context, we may need move to the other side on the street for the flawed large tree to appear acceptable.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Though a Shohin display is beautiful......
It's not the easiest on the body to get into and look at.
Harder to appreciate.
Things like the Shohin Show will help that.
But creating a different method of displaying smaller trees will get them more noticed.
Of course...I'm bi...ased....
Because perfect super ultra miniature is what I'm trying to do....
And full appreciation will never be had in a Shohin box stand.
The enclosed glass cases at our show is nice. High. But easily overlooked as an endcap.
IMO....
The different color pots and stand is a cop out to make a pretty display with half ass trees.
Peep
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/my-shohin-collection.20355/
For an idea on making Shohin have a Bigger impact.
But we gotta work on a better display tactic.
Sorce
It's not the easiest on the body to get into and look at.
Harder to appreciate.
Things like the Shohin Show will help that.
But creating a different method of displaying smaller trees will get them more noticed.
Of course...I'm bi...ased....
Because perfect super ultra miniature is what I'm trying to do....
And full appreciation will never be had in a Shohin box stand.
The enclosed glass cases at our show is nice. High. But easily overlooked as an endcap.
IMO....
The different color pots and stand is a cop out to make a pretty display with half ass trees.
Peep
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/my-shohin-collection.20355/
For an idea on making Shohin have a Bigger impact.
But we gotta work on a better display tactic.
Sorce
