The secret to growing bonsai. A thread inspired by Bolero.

[sorce]

these two trees

@William N. Valavanis is this the same tree?

I really can't Tell!

Sorce

 

[MichaelS]

@William N. Valavanis is this the same tree?

I really can't Tell!

Sorce

Waddaumeen you can't tell? Look closer.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I never used to like it but I like it now more than before. I don't think it's a masterpiece of the craft and I believe it could be improved on but you can't deny that it's unique and that's quite an achievement in this bonsai world of clones. But I think perhaps the reason it appeals is that it conveys a primal feeling which most modern bonsai have completely lost. In other words it speaks more profoundly to us (some) than the manicured ones do.

Agreed. This one seems to capture the original spirit of the art: go to the mountains and drag home a beautiful tree and stick it in a pot. The trunk is powerful, proportionally pleasing, with interesting play between dead and live sections. But like most of Dan's stuff, it's really wild and it's a very different taste. I have a photo somewhere of that tree from about 20 years ago when I visited Elendan Gardens. I'll try to find that photo album and scan a shot.

 

[chicago1980]

The tree portrait conveys an age that can be difficult to accept. Almost cause me to feel dwarfed by it's appearance.

It conveys old, strength, time, & maturity, to me in it's whole image.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

I don't want to get into that again but just this. If what you say is correct and we take it to it's ultimate conclusion, we are doing art as soon as we get out of bed and scratch ourselves. Where's the line? And you can't say there IS no line because then art has no meaning......

That is really not what I meant, whatever...

 

[Cadillactaste]

I think MichaelS post is Michael expressing his opinion on Bonsai Gardening and he has every right to do so here or on any other BN Thread...and he is mostly right re his post's content....

I think BVF also has the right to , in this case, try and bring MichaelS down for his post...however it shows a side of BVF that is not exactly Understanding of Bonsai Forum or Thread Discussion...

Please...I am wondering WHO Micahael is...what extent of training he had to go through this post and critique everyone's show and tell. Is he an educated man in the art of Bonsai? I was reading a thread I was tagged in for my direction. Then start seeing him direct more critiquing than I care to count ones trees chosen. Honestly?

I enjoyed reading the beginning of this thread and I hope it can continue in that direction. I was inspired for a minute by people having an actual ongoing positive dialog about personal growth on their own trees.
@Cadillactaste i continue to be impressed.
@Brian Van Fleet thank you for starting this thread

Thanks Denise...I am curious...as to the one doing all the critiquing. I didn't get that this was a critiquing thread. But one of a show and tell sort of aspect of what inspires us...and what we currently feel our best. Nothing like one running around with a safety pin trying to pop bubbles. If a tree speaks to one...THAT is what matters. It may not speak to the next person...and that is okay. One thing I do like about bonsai is...there seems to be a style for everyone's taste. Yet not every style fits everyone's taste it makes some see more in a specific tree than another would. I would be curious to know of the critiquing one @MichaelS that feels that his credentials gives him the right to critique what another find appealing? It's like...saying, one has poor taste in the tree they chose to share that inspired them. I don't know you well enough Michael...to know your credentials. Maybe enlighten me...so that I may understand your knowledge you share as a learning aspect more than a higher than thou aspect of belittling what ones shared as the tree that inspired them? (No sarcasm,no tone of inflection...I just wish to understand if you have more teaching and are a master to some degree that ones look up to you...and you are sharing your knowledge with us little folk. To broaden and fine tune our seeing bonsai. For if you are...then, I don't wish to offer disrespect of your knowledge.)

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

@William N. Valavanis is this the same tree?

I really can't Tell!

Sorce

Definitely 2 different trees. Pretty sure the one you posted from the MABA show was the logo tree promoting the 5th USNBE:

And the other one was in his garden when I toured it during the 4th:

 

[Cadillactaste]

That is really not what I meant, whatever...

I didn't get that at all from reading your comment John. I'm beginning to see a pattern with the other poster though...one that isn't so flattering.

 

[Eric Group]

But somehow you have the authority to say that I don't. How does that work?
Very few of us are doing art with our bonsai I'm afraid. I know most of the time I don't. Do I have the ''authority'' to say that or should I refer to you first?

Yeah, I am comfortable with my level of authority in the subject and your pie in the sky made up ideas about what is and what is not art are your opinions that you toss around as though they are fact. That is why I can say with absolute certainty you are WRONG. Wrong in how you define it, wrong in how you describe your OPINIONS as though they are somehow proven facts and wrong in your bullshit elitist attitude, condescending others who actually had the guts to put out there what they like, and talk about why, which... You won't do obviously because you know you are talking out of both side of your mouth on the subject and there is no such thing as a tree that adheres to your definitions of art..

Beyond that to speak to specifics of your comments on the Olives My Neli posted- you also do not know if those trunks were completely sculpted by nature... were YOU the one who collected those trees? If they had SOME deadwood, and the ARTISTS enhanced the features of that wood to make it more visually appealing, would it then be a work by his own hand? What if they simply applied chemicals to make them a different color and stand out more aesthetically? What if they had NO deadwood when he started work on them? You don't know any more about them than anyone else who saw the pics... by your comments nobody can claim a tree as their own work of art unless they grew it from seed because nature did most of the work for them, right? Well even with a seedling grown in my yard, does nature not intervene to cause it to sprout, have some determination in the exact genetics of the plant, it's growth rate, the color of it's leaves...? Where does it end? Pretty much what you are speaking to below:

I don't want to get into that again but just this. If what you say is correct and we take it to it's ultimate conclusion, we are doing art as soon as we get out of bed and scratch ourselves. Where's the line? And you can't say there IS no line because then art has no meaning......

Don't want to get into that again? Then why did you bring it up? That is a huge jump to scratching ourselves in the morning being art. Over exaggeration to make a point, belittling others' opinions to make them seem trivial... Getting awfully defensive... All from someone who said they didn't want to get into all this again AFTER getting into it? Your ideas about what is and is not art and what is or is not a good bonsai, are your own OPINIONS. You are certainty entitled to them, but yes. I am an authority on art. I have been practicing in multiple mediums since I was a child- over 30 years ago- I have a four year degree in the arts and I have done it professionally through government and private agencies. With that stated, I can tell you my very well informed OPINION is that your opinions are wrong, and your constant blathering on the subject any time it is brought up is boardering on desperation.

As Thumbless said- art is in the eye of the beholder... an old, cliche statement perhaps, but that is the best "definition" you will find. Because, there is not a CLEAR definition out there.. if you look it up, Webster says something about a creative work made by human hands, generally speaks of some level of beauty or measurable interest or inspiration... but the truth is that all of that is subjective- how much of an influence the human hands had in creating the work of art, how much "beauty" a work possesses... All mean something different to different people. So you tossing your weight around on the subject, acting like YOU get to tell others what is and is not art because of what YOU believe... That is why I react so negatively to your posts on the subject. That is why it is WRONG to ME. Because you, nor I, nor anyone else on the forum gets to tell someone their work of art is not art. That is in stark contrast to what art is all about. You seem to be railing against the "cookie cutter" designs some people fall into with Bonsai when by doing so you are pigeon holing the requirements of what would fit your deffinition into such a tight criteria, you have made it much more restrictive than the rules you are against.

Sorry to take this one off on such a tangent, I made my point, don't have much more to say on the matter. Brian, I will try to find a few pics to post soon to do my part to get it back on track.

 

[Anthony]

And a quiet voice mumbles -------------

If you draw your inspiration from Trees in Nature, you run the risk of a masterpiece.
If you draw your interest from another man's effort, well you could end up with a cookie cutter............................

Wasn't that fascinating, a shimpaku all dressed up and looking proud, and on his off day he looks like any old slob..........

@Cadillactaste

Darlene,

Michael S is a well respected Bonsai practitioner from down under, been reading him since AUSbonsai.
He like Paul [ also Australia / Aus Bonsai ] are both men to read and chew on their words.

Good Day
Anthony

*
Oh to copy or follow Mr.Pall's excellent shape [ the Maple ] ask him for height and cultivar.
You may if you go too small, disappoint yourself.

 

[Cadillactaste]

And a quiet voice mumbles -------------

If you draw your inspiration from Trees in Nature, you run the risk of a masterpiece.
If you draw your interest from another man's effort, well you could end up with a cookie cutter............................

Wasn't that fascinating, a shimpaku all dressed up and looking proud, and on his off day he looks like any old slob..........

@Cadillactaste

Darlene,

Michael S is a well respected Bonsai practitioner from down under, been reading him since AUSbonsai.
He like Paul [ also Australia / Aus Bonsai ] are both men to read and chew on their words.

Good Day
Anthony

*
Oh to copy or follow Mr.Pall's excellent shape [ the Maple ] ask him for height and cultivar.
You may if you go too small, disappoint yourself.

Thank you Anthony...honestly, I wasn't sure about him after reading his scratching and itching comment. That direction of comparison was so night and day off the spectrum. That I had sort of pegged him in a different light. You offer food for thought. But...this thread I thought was more on what inspired a person. I didn't get it was a critiquing of what inspired us. That...sort of...tastes a little off to my sensitivities.

 

[M. Frary]

Yeah, I am comfortable with my level of authority in the subject and your pie in the sky made up ideas about what is and what is not art are your opinions that you toss around as though they are fact. That is why I can say with absolute certainty you are WRONG. Wrong in how you define it, wrong in how you describe your OPINIONS as though they are somehow proven facts and wrong in your bullshit elitist attitude, condescending others who actually had the guts to put out there what they like, and talk about why, which... You won't do obviously because you know you are talking out of both side of your mouth on the subject and there is no such thing as a tree that adheres to your definitions of art..

Beyond that to speak to specifics of your comments on the Olives My Neli posted- you also do not know if those trunks were completely sculpted by nature... were YOU the one who collected those trees? If they had SOME deadwood, and the ARTISTS enhanced the features of that wood to make it more visually appealing, would it then be a work by his own hand? What if they simply applied chemicals to make them a different color and stand out more aesthetically? What if they had NO deadwood when he started work on them? You don't know any more about them than anyone else who saw the pics... by your comments nobody can claim a tree as their own work of art unless they grew it from seed because nature did most of the work for them, right? Well even with a seedling grown in my yard, does nature not intervene to cause it to sprout, have some determination in the exact genetics of the plant, it's growth rate, the color of it's leaves...? Where does it end? Pretty much what you are speaking to below:



Don't want to get into that again? Then why did you bring it up? That is a huge jump to scratching ourselves in the morning being art. Over exaggeration to make a point, belittling others' opinions to make them seem trivial... Getting awfully defensive... All from someone who said they didn't want to get into all this again AFTER getting into it? Your ideas about what is and is not art and what is or is not a good bonsai, are your own OPINIONS. You are certainty entitled to them, but yes. I am an authority on art. I have been practicing in multiple mediums since I was a child- over 30 years ago- I have a four year degree in the arts and I have done it professionally through government and private agencies. With that stated, I can tell you my very well informed OPINION is that your opinions are wrong, and your constant blathering on the subject any time it is brought up is boardering on desperation.

As Thumbless said- art is in the eye of the beholder... an old, cliche statement perhaps, but that is the best "definition" you will find. Because, there is not a CLEAR definition out there.. if you look it up, Webster says something about a creative work made by human hands, generally speaks of some level of beauty or measurable interest or inspiration... but the truth is that all of that is subjective- how much of an influence the human hands had in creating the work of art, how much "beauty" a work possesses... All mean something different to different people. So you tossing your weight around on the subject, acting like YOU get to tell others what is and is not art because of what YOU believe... That is why I react so negatively to your posts on the subject. That is why it is WRONG to ME. Because you, nor I, nor anyone else on the forum gets to tell someone their work of art is not art. That is in stark contrast to what art is all about. You seem to be railing against the "cookie cutter" designs some people fall into with Bonsai when by doing so you are pigeon holing the requirements of what would fit your deffinition into such a tight criteria, you have made it much more restrictive than the rules you are against.

Sorry to take this one off on such a tangent, I made my point, don't have much more to say on the matter. Brian, I will try to find a few pics to post soon to do my part to get it back on track.

In other words he's nothing but a pompous ass.
I agree!

 

[Cadillactaste]

Back on track...trees that inspire me. Who isn't taken back by real amazing ROR? This one was in a show in 2013 I believe in the Philippians.

The size of this...surely makes it a sight to behold. Lushous and green moss...reminds me of our hiking trails and the moss that grows so lush on the large boulders and such.


Never will I own or possess something so grand...but, I can still admire it. Though, with Sergio's direction...I can pretend if I squint my eyes...to have a ROR with my maple I recently purchased. But, alas...no rock to be had. But...it gives the illusion of one. This maple of mine...has a long way to go. So it didn't make my first post on best tree. I don't see it as my best. But...it's intriguing none the less. But...I sort of derailed this thread...trying to crawl out of the rabbit hole and back on topic. Sorry guys.

 

[M. Frary]

Michael S is a well respected Bonsai practitioner from down under

Who cares?

 

[Djtommy]

I couldnt give 1 example of the pinacle of bonsai, i do am partial to spruces.
I know i was very impressed when i first saw this todoroki ezospruce below.
Now let me say that i sure do not think this is the pinacle of design but it a left a strong impression/feeling on me and feeling is what i think is most important.
I also wish to include that every picture i have seen from this tree has left me kinda dissapointed.


I love looking at the ezospruces bonsai in japan though nearly 100%of those have too much foliage to my liking

Some of mine, most not styled yet or on the way. Will be spending a week in the mountains next month just to go look at the spruces, hope to get some more inspiration

 

[Anthony]

Darlene,

if you follow the idea that a Bonsai is a sculpture of a tree in miniature, then you would want yo follow the sculptors
like Michaelangelo, or Bernini or other [ apologies Alexandria, my brain forgets the names of the Great Greek
sculptiors] and go to Nature.

Making drawn sketches of whole trees, parts of trees, looking to see why they look so good in nature. Even paying attention
to the backgrounds.
Perhaps, using clay or plastercene to put shapes together.
Looking also at the mass, negative positive spaces ........................

Putting a good deal of effort, of yourself into something that will lose the design and change ever so often.
Very difficult to do, almost a fool's errand.

If you follow the idea that just copying other folks trees, and difference comes about by the tree doing more of it's
own thing or you just get exhausted copying, whatever. Then the cookie cutter will come.

Protecting yourself, putting little of yourself into the situation.

It is one thing to say X has beautiful trees, it is quite another situation to try and copy his original ----------- very disrespectful

But this is a growing tree and the design will mutate ever so often.

Back to Michael ------------- note how everyone was running down the Ebi tile technique.
Notice the observation Michael made on how the root strikes the earth.
He may write, and scratch you, but chew on his observations.
Notice that even if a tree does not feature surface roots, that the many will still do it ----------- no observation, just copying.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[choppychoppy]

So I had a few for inspiration as well as a few from my garden in the next post. There are a lot of different things that look 'good' to me so I wanted to put up a batch really showing some difference that I like a lot.

 

[Cadillactaste]

@Anthony...I think...one can draw inspiration from both aspects...nature, and a bonsai that speaks to them. I don't see a line in the sand as to one or the other but a marriage of both. I roll to the beat of my own drum...I doubt anyone will ever call my trees cookie cutter. I prefer quirkiness...

 

[choppychoppy]

and some of my things some 'good' trees - some material looking to work to the future inspirations.

 

[Adair M]

Yeah, I am comfortable with my level of authority in the subject and your pie in the sky made up ideas about what is and what is not art are your opinions that you toss around as though they are fact. That is why I can say with absolute certainty you are WRONG. Wrong in how you define it, wrong in how you describe your OPINIONS as though they are somehow proven facts and wrong in your bullshit elitist attitude, condescending others who actually had the guts to put out there what they like, and talk about why, which... You won't do obviously because you know you are talking out of both side of your mouth on the subject and there is no such thing as a tree that adheres to your definitions of art..

Beyond that to speak to specifics of your comments on the Olives My Neli posted- you also do not know if those trunks were completely sculpted by nature... were YOU the one who collected those trees? If they had SOME deadwood, and the ARTISTS enhanced the features of that wood to make it more visually appealing, would it then be a work by his own hand? What if they simply applied chemicals to make them a different color and stand out more aesthetically? What if they had NO deadwood when he started work on them? You don't know any more about them than anyone else who saw the pics... by your comments nobody can claim a tree as their own work of art unless they grew it from seed because nature did most of the work for them, right? Well even with a seedling grown in my yard, does nature not intervene to cause it to sprout, have some determination in the exact genetics of the plant, it's growth rate, the color of it's leaves...? Where does it end? Pretty much what you are speaking to below:



Don't want to get into that again? Then why did you bring it up? That is a huge jump to scratching ourselves in the morning being art. Over exaggeration to make a point, belittling others' opinions to make them seem trivial... Getting awfully defensive... All from someone who said they didn't want to get into all this again AFTER getting into it? Your ideas about what is and is not art and what is or is not a good bonsai, are your own OPINIONS. You are certainty entitled to them, but yes. I am an authority on art. I have been practicing in multiple mediums since I was a child- over 30 years ago- I have a four year degree in the arts and I have done it professionally through government and private agencies. With that stated, I can tell you my very well informed OPINION is that your opinions are wrong, and your constant blathering on the subject any time it is brought up is boardering on desperation.

As Thumbless said- art is in the eye of the beholder... an old, cliche statement perhaps, but that is the best "definition" you will find. Because, there is not a CLEAR definition out there.. if you look it up, Webster says something about a creative work made by human hands, generally speaks of some level of beauty or measurable interest or inspiration... but the truth is that all of that is subjective- how much of an influence the human hands had in creating the work of art, how much "beauty" a work possesses... All mean something different to different people. So you tossing your weight around on the subject, acting like YOU get to tell others what is and is not art because of what YOU believe... That is why I react so negatively to your posts on the subject. That is why it is WRONG to ME. Because you, nor I, nor anyone else on the forum gets to tell someone their work of art is not art. That is in stark contrast to what art is all about. You seem to be railing against the "cookie cutter" designs some people fall into with Bonsai when by doing so you are pigeon holing the requirements of what would fit your deffinition into such a tight criteria, you have made it much more restrictive than the rules you are against.

Sorry to take this one off on such a tangent, I made my point, don't have much more to say on the matter. Brian, I will try to find a few pics to post soon to do my part to get it back on track.

I suppose in MichaelS's world, Michelangelo was not an artist. After all, David was inside that slab of marble all the time! All Michelangelo had to do was remove the parts of the slab that didn't look like David!