Eric Group
Masterpiece
Just as wrong this time as it was every other time you posted this nonsense. You do not understand what art is and certainly are not an authority who gets to say what it is not.
The secret to growing bonsai. A thread inspired by Bolero.
- Thread starter Brian Van Fleet
- Start date
chicago1980
Omono
- Messages
- 1,405
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Here is another inspiration, well this is nowhere near as easy as I thought it would be. Pinnacle choice is difficult.
Wow! That tree is certainly effective in the story it's telling! Straight out of a horror film!
Not to my taste, but I can see how some might like it.
ColinFraser
Masterpiece
If I'm not mistaken, that's one of Dan Robinson's. I think it's the same one I saw in person at the Golden State show two years ago. Cool tree.
Ok, let's have an objective look at the trees.
First Bill's. And let me say it's a nice well developed bonsai which has had much dedication put into it. I see that. However, the problem with bonsai forums at the moment is that everyone seems to be frightened of critique and in-depth discussion. Perhaps they are concerned about their personal standing in the bonsai community? I don't know. I don't care. I've held comments back myself many times because I sometimes think it's not worth the effort. But if we are to deeply understand different perspectives and opinions, we need to take a particular tree apart branch by branch and study as much as a 2 dimensional image will allow. If we are to improve and develop, I think it's very important for as many people as possible to give their honest assessments so we can all contemplate them and compare them with our own views. Personally, I'm not too precious to listen to the most negative comments to any of my trees. In fact, I would prefer them over compliments as they are always more honest and thoughtful.
Firstly, I talking about material quality and potential. This is always more important than age IMO.
So, in that light, I will overlook the fact the scots pine is older, fuller, more developed and has mature bark.
The nebari has a rather one sided and unsettled appearance which is not easily rectified at this late stage. Although not impossible. I don't necessarily mind one sided nebaris but this one betrays the pot grown history of the tree and the fact that the positioning of the tree was considered more important than early root work.
The first branch is too linear and we can see no detail in it as we would on a developed scots pine of this age. This does not add to the illusion but detracts from it. Obviously we cannot see how the branch is attached to the trunk but as is, it almost looks like it has been artificially ''stuck on''
The second branch is more interesting but wired down in the boring fan shape again with no apparent detail as are all the branches. Also this branch seems to have been kept to fill in a space rather than a as a truly interesting and integral part of the tree.
In my opinion, this branch should be removed.
The overall look of the tree in quite ordinary and it gives me an impression of tameness. Not very natural.
Thinking more about it, it may very well be that the tree could be restyled into something truly special.
Your tree.
This tree has greater potential than the one above. First, the movement is far more interesting. (better even than Adair's favourite white pine which has an ugly bow in the trunk and always will have)
It has a wild - even if slightly conventional look and with careful consideration of not falling into the trap of wiring all the branches into one flat plane, or hinding all the branches, it will develop this ''wildness'' as it grows. The nebari needs very little work to become quite interesting and powerful.
All in all, the bones of this tree are far superior than the bones of the scots pine. IMO!
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Double post.................................
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Ok, let's have an objective look at the trees.
First Bill's. And let me say it's a nice well developed bonsai which has had much dedication put into it. I see that. However, the problem with bonsai forums at the moment is that everyone seems to be frightened of critique and in-depth discussion. Perhaps they are concerned about their personal standing in the bonsai community? I don't know. I don't care. I've held comments back myself many times because I sometimes think it's not worth the effort. But if we are to deeply understand different perspectives and opinions, we need to take a particular tree apart branch by branch and study as much as a 2 dimensional image will allow. If we are to improve and develop, I think it's very important for as many people as possible to give their honest assessments so we can all contemplate them and compare them with our own views. Personally, I'm not too precious to listen to the most negative comments to any of my trees. In fact, I would prefer them over compliments as they are always more honest and thoughtful.
Firstly, I talking about material quality and potential. This is always more important than age IMO.
So, in that light, I will overlook the fact the scots pine is older, fuller, more developed and has mature bark.
The nebari has a rather one sided and unsettled appearance which is not easily rectified at this late stage. Although not impossible. I don't necessarily mind one sided nebaris but this one betrays the pot grown history of the tree and the fact that the positioning of the tree was considered more important than early root work.
The first branch is too linear and we can see no detail in it as we would on a developed scots pine of this age. This does not add to the illusion but detracts from it. Obviously we cannot see how the branch is attached to the trunk but as is, it almost looks like it has been artificially ''stuck on''
The second branch is more interesting but wired down in the boring fan shape again with no apparent detail as are all the branches. Also this branch seems to have been kept to fill in a space rather than a as a truly interesting and integral part of the tree.
In my opinion, this branch should be removed.
The overall look of the tree in quite ordinary and it gives me an impression of tameness. Not very natural.
Thinking more about it, it may very well be that the tree could be restyled into something truly special.
View attachment 141737
Your tree.
This tree has greater potential than the one above. First, the movement is far more interesting
View attachment 141738
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Ok, let's have an objective look at the trees.
First Bill's. And let me say it's a nice well developed bonsai which has had much dedication put into it. I see that. However, the problem with bonsai forums at the moment is that everyone seems to be frightened of critique and in-depth discussion. Perhaps they are concerned about their personal standing in the bonsai community? I don't know. I don't care. I've held comments back myself many times because I sometimes think it's not worth the effort. But if we are to deeply understand different perspectives and opinions, we need to take a particular tree apart branch by branch and study as much as a 2 dimensional image will allow. If we are to improve and develop, I think it's very important for as many people as possible to give their honest assessments so we can all contemplate them and compare them with our own views. Personally, I'm not too precious to listen to the most negative comments to any of my trees. In fact, I would prefer them over compliments as they are always more honest and thoughtful.
Firstly, I talking about material quality and potential. This is always more important than age IMO.
So, in that light, I will overlook the fact the scots pine is older, fuller, more developed and has mature bark.
The nebari has a rather one sided and unsettled appearance which is not easily rectified at this late stage. Although not impossible. I don't necessarily mind one sided nebaris but this one betrays the pot grown history of the tree and the fact that the positioning of the tree was considered more important than early root work.
The first branch is too linear and we can see no detail in it as we would on a developed scots pine of this age. This does not add to the illusion but detracts from it. Obviously we cannot see how the branch is attached to the trunk but as is, it almost looks like it has been artificially ''stuck on''
The second branch is more interesting but wired down in the boring fan shape again with no apparent detail as are all the branches. Also this branch seems to have been kept to fill in a space rather than a as a truly interesting and integral part of the tree.
In my opinion, this branch should be removed.
The overall look of the tree in quite ordinary and it gives me an impression of tameness. Not very natural.
Thinking more about it, it may very well be that the tree could be restyled into something truly special.
View attachment 141737
Your tree.
This tree has greater potential than the one above. First, the movement is far more interesting
View attachment 141738
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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But somehow you have the authority to say that I don't. How does that work?
Very few of us are doing art with our bonsai I'm afraid. I know most of the time I don't. Do I have the ''authority'' to say that or should I refer to you first?
thomas22
Chumono
I had this tree saved on my computer also. Great tree. Here is a different pic.
Mellow Mullet
Masterpiece
If you are doing bonsai, I think you are doing art. Maybe you aren't at the finishing stages, maybe you are just stretching your canvas. And as with any art form, some are better at it than others, but all of it is still art.
Art is in the eye of the viewer, I mean look at Picasso, most of his stuff is crap, but he was famous.
Interesting comments, Michael.
The major flaw in the Kirby Kokonoe is not the bow in the trunk. That may be how it appears in a photo, but not when it's in front of you. No, the major flaw is the girth of a couple of the branches. Kokonoe does that. Makes fat branches. To the point that the fat branches destroy the illusion of a fat trunk.
My Zuisho still has thin branches. I think that in the long run, my tree just might develop into a better twin trunk than the Kirby Kokonoe. It is a smaller tree, however, and big trees are always more impressive.
Bill's tree: on pines, I like to see the woody structure under the pads of foliage. On the Scots, I don't see any of that on the lower branches. The foliage obscures all the branch structure. Scots and Mugo also suffer from having foliage that's tough to tame. Their shoots produce a lot of needles that point downward. JBP and JWP tend to produce tufts of needles that grow up, so they produce a cleaner pad bottom, which also can display the woody structure rather than just a mass of needles.
The tree also has a very broad dome like apex. To my eye, it's styled more like a JWP than a Scots. JWP are not as apically dominant as most other Pines, so they tend to produce the wide dome apex. I think a Scots would have a sharper apex.
I don't want to get into that again but just this. If what you say is correct and we take it to it's ultimate conclusion, we are doing art as soon as we get out of bed and scratch ourselves. Where's the line? And you can't say there IS no line because then art has no meaning......
amcoffeegirl
Masterpiece
I enjoyed reading the beginning of this thread and I hope it can continue in that direction. I was inspired for a minute by people having an actual ongoing positive dialog about personal growth on their own trees.
@Cadillactaste i continue to be impressed.
@Brian Van Fleet thank you for starting this thread
@Cadillactaste i continue to be impressed.
@Brian Van Fleet thank you for starting this thread
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
I like this tree and many others of Dan Robinson's. However, I am completely lost trying to understand what makes it good.
I have no innate artistic talent, so I find myself spending lots of time trying to identify what are the key elements of why I like 'it'. It took me several years to get the branch 1,2,3 thing and why the apex must come toward the viewer - I now have my anthropomorphic understanding of those elements and I think my trees are looking better now that I do.
But, as I said, I am at a loss with most of Dan's stuff. What is it that makes it good art and not a scraggly piece of amateurish crap in my backyard? Do you know why you think this is a great tree?
Seriously ...
I think the fact that you like it shows you have a developed taste or at least you look a little more deeply than the superficial. I never used to like it but I like it now more than before. I don't think it's a masterpiece of the craft and I believe it could be improved on but you can't deny that it's unique and that's quite an achievement in this bonsai world of clones. But I think perhaps the reason it appeals is that it conveys a primal feeling which most modern bonsai have completely lost. In other words it speaks more profoundly to us (some) than the manicured ones do.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I'm coming with an entry....
Taking Adairs "in person" advice to heart..
I went looking for trees I have seen in person.....
Found this as posted by BVF from our Show here.
As compared to....
Quite different!
MichaelS has good points.
And though BVF makes hard points...
He remains one of our best people.
Pinching hands down!
Sorce
Taking Adairs "in person" advice to heart..
I went looking for trees I have seen in person.....
Found this as posted by BVF from our Show here.
As compared to....
Quite different!
MichaelS has good points.
And though BVF makes hard points...
He remains one of our best people.
Pinching hands down!
Sorce
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Hmmm...is.it.different?
Sorce
Sorce
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
So I'm with @Grant Hamby on the Shohin.
The Pinnacle of Shohin.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/my-shohin-collection.20355/
No less than hundreds of possible combinations!
The epitome of bonsai...
Pot matters. Have a look at every PERFECT pot combo in that thread!
I mentioned how I love the matching rust colored pot.
The reply....
The best "bonsai" on my bench?
What Am I doing to improve it?
Taking it off the bench of course!
Putting it in the ground!
And....
Making my own pots! (soon)
And....
Anything that Works!
Sorce
The Pinnacle of Shohin.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/my-shohin-collection.20355/
No less than hundreds of possible combinations!
The epitome of bonsai...
Pot matters. Have a look at every PERFECT pot combo in that thread!
I mentioned how I love the matching rust colored pot.
The reply....
The best "bonsai" on my bench?
What Am I doing to improve it?
Taking it off the bench of course!
Putting it in the ground!
And....
Making my own pots! (soon)
And....
Anything that Works!
Sorce
Yes, as in everything is different from everything else, and no, as in it's exactly the same
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Yes, as in everything is different from everything else, and no, as in it's exactly the same
I don't know what that means!
But I totally .appreciate .your .views and dedication!
Sorce
Ha ha ha....A bit cryptic?
I mean, no two things on earth are identical ...obviously, but for all intents and purposes these two trees are interchangeable as far as what they say.
