The most Interesting ERC?? Lichen, Natural Jin, Strong Taper, Old Stunted Tree?

[NJtsr95]

In a quandary of how to proceed with this beautiful Yamadori ERC. It is 30” tall, trunk base 1.75” wide and fairly good proportions for a formal upright in the style of a giant Redwood?? I wont even dare to bother trying to wire the trunk; the taproot was like trying to cut through a steel cable, I preserved the upper 8” because of some strong laterals i didnt damage, which is why its in such a deep nursery pot, and while many of the fine feeder roots are in tact im not sure if i caused them mechanical damage during transplant.

Anyone know what could cause this exteme variation in foliage? It stuck out to me at first from far away, I couldnt tell what it was. It doesnt look like any ERC I’ve ever seen. I cant wait to try propagating to see if I can get clones of this beautiful foliage or if it was strictly as a result of the conditions grown in? Or if its genetically different? Just cant stop being enamored by it honestly and having trouble deciding what to do. I dont want to prune much because it looks nice as is, I dont want to stress the tree. But I want to get some healthy cuttings out of it in case the tree dies as its considerably older than I thought given the height and honestly surprised myself when i saw the thickness of the trunk and taproot.

wiring the branches will be “fun” but good practice. Am going to clean out some of the years of debris, prickly and dead scale foliage accumulated in the extremely dense branchlet crotches. Figure if i can wire this one without setting the tree on fire i can wire anything. The dodge a wrench approach as it is.

Advice welcome! (Tree inside to get better photos only)

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

When was it collected? Is that sand in the soil? Looks healthy.

 

[NJtsr95]

When was it collected? Is that sand in the soil? Looks healthy.

Approximately 5 days ago. And yes, I preserved around a gallons worth (maybe slightly more) of the very sandy soil it was growing in (and filled in the hole and sowed a handful of pine seeds in its place).

It’s not like commercial produced desert sand, its more variable in grain with larger gravely bits, down to very fine, almost like silica dust. Added a few cups of larger pea-grape sized gravel to promote drainage (not as a layer at bottom but mixed in) and a few cups of pine bark in theory to promote root development.

This is the only potential clue to its age. And im still not sure how old it could be. But its definitely much older than the 10yr old or so sapling i thought it was given the height and scale foliage. I kind of made a hack job of this cut but here is a pic of the width of the taproot where i cut it relative to the base, and the amount of rings (which i am having trouble counting honestly, because there appears to be “rings within rings” and am not sure if thats just a dry spell in summer of one year or two seperate years.

 

[Dav4]

If you just collected this tree, you shouldn't do anything to it for a few years other than water and feed. I'm not sure about the timing of collection or the sand/soil media, either. How much fine root did you collect? Also, how are you going to overwinter this one? Fwiw, I've seen scale foliage like this on ERC growing on Cape Cod near my folk's place.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

If you just collected this tree, you shouldn't do anything to it for a few years other than water and feed. I'm not sure about the timing of collection or the sand/soil media, either. How much fine root did you collect? Also, how are you going to overwinter this one? Fwiw, I've seen scale foliage like this on ERC growing on Cape Cod near my folk's place.

Agreed, if it was just collected, the next steps are just ensuring survival. No problem removing dead stuff, but that should be it for a year or more. Keeping it still will help the roots establish.

 

[Tieball]

I would remove dead needle clusters…and they are usually prickly sharp. I would not prune off any dead branches yet…the dead branches may be an interesting component of your final direction in the future. I’d work on getting the tree stabilized and healthy after the collection. I’d plan for at least 2 season-years of health before more work….to me meaning 2025 and 2026. The tree needs the stabilization and care time to react to the collection changes.

Really nice looking ERC. Well done on the collection. The tree has a lot of excellent potential for an upright stressed-out tree of great character.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

the amount of rings (which i am having trouble counting honestly, because there appears to be “rings within rings” and am not sure if thats just a dry spell in summer of one year or two seperate years.

Junipers have a growth spurt in spring, one or two in summer (depending on grazing and the weather) and sometimes another in fall before the ring of the year closes.
That makes them hard to count indeed.

For clarity's sake I would only count the well defined ones. If at least, true age is what you care about. It's better to call it younger than it is, than to call it more ancient than it is.
I'm more of a 'it's as old as it looks' kind of bonsai person.

 

[NJtsr95]

If you just collected this tree, you shouldn't do anything to it for a few years other than water and feed. I'm not sure about the timing of collection or the sand/soil media, either. How much fine root did you collect? Also, how are you going to overwinter this one? Fwiw, I've seen scale foliage like this on ERC growing on Cape Cod near my folk's place.

Almost all of the fine root near the soil line was preserved. Although im not sure if ive inadvertently damaged any of them, the moist mixed grain sand rootball was preserved and basically scooped into a large garbage bag. I then grabbed several handfuls of sphagnum moss to surround the rootball and taproot as the sand shifted around a lot obviously. I initially chopped the taproot about 10” below the soil line, but the cut was really really bad of a hackjob, so I cut it about 2” higher, cleaner and nearly 45deg. I then gently sprinkled some hormone root powder into the fine rootball and to all the cut ends of the roots ive damaged. I tried this approach with a significantly smaller and uglier ERC about a month before pulling the trigger to harvest this, and it seems to have worked and the conditions were much hotter and less favorable in early Aug around here (i didnt impulsively yank it out the first time i saw it, but i also didnt necessarily do it properly either, lol).

I suspect i have enough root here to keep it healthy, it will be overwintered outside with some kind of janky insulation solution to protect the rootball. Havent fully decided yet. Unless its better to keep it in an unheated covered area and provide Artificial light instead. I know it needs dormancy and that will be accounted for. I underestimated the age based on the height, significantly and I know that changes the care requirements and the necessity of the taproot unfortunately is more important with older trees apparently.

And interesting abt cape cod. While ive never been, i assume the conditions were vaguely similar enough, getting salt spray from strong storms and the nutrient poor sandy environment probably has something to do with it

 

[NJtsr95]

In a quandary of how to proceed with this beautiful Yamadori ERC. It is 30” tall, trunk base 1.75” wide and fairly good proportions for a formal upright in the style of a giant Redwood?? I wont even dare to bother trying to wire the trunk; the taproot was like trying to cut through a steel cable, I preserved the upper 8” because of some strong laterals i didnt damage, which is why its in such a deep nursery pot, and while many of the fine feeder roots are in tact im not sure if i caused them mechanical damage during transplant.

Anyone know what could cause this exteme variation in foliage? It stuck out to me at first from far away, I couldnt tell what it was. It doesnt look like any ERC I’ve ever seen. I cant wait to try propagating to see if I can get clones of this beautiful foliage or if it was strictly as a result of the conditions grown in? Or if its genetically different? Just cant stop being enamored by it honestly and having trouble deciding what to do. I dont want to prune much because it looks nice as is, I dont want to stress the tree. But I want to get some healthy cuttings out of it in case the tree dies as its considerably older than I thought given the height and honestly surprised myself when i saw the thickness of the trunk and taproot.

wiring the branches will be “fun” but good practice. Am going to clean out some of the years of debris, prickly and dead scale foliage accumulated in the extremely dense branchlet crotches. Figure if i can wire this one without setting the tree on fire i can wire anything. The dodge a wrench approach as it is.

Advice welcome! (Tree inside to get better photos only)

Slight correction, couldn’t edit for some reason, mobile. It’s more accurately in the growth form of Coast Redwood which will be my natural inspiration for when i decide to style, depending on how its looking by the spring or summer next year. Until then im removing tiny dead twigs, except maybe near the apex, and pine needles from nearby trees and semi juvenile foliage jammed in the crotches

 

[Paradox]

Slight correction, couldn’t edit for some reason, mobile. It’s more accurately in the growth form of Coast Redwood which will be my natural inspiration for when i decide to style, depending on how its looking by the spring or summer next year. Until then im removing tiny dead twigs, except maybe near the apex, and pine needles from nearby trees and semi juvenile foliage jammed in the crotches

You cant edit posts after 20 minutes
I agree with the others that say to leave this alone until next year since you just collected it.
If it survives collection and winter, I would let it grow next spring and summer. Just water and fertilizer.
Next fall, you can wire to style and start eliminating branches you dont want in the final design. I would not remove more than 25% of the foliage per year though

 

[NJtsr95]

You cant edit posts after 20 minutes
I agree with the others that say to leave this alone until next year since you just collected it.
If it survives collection and winter, I would let it grow next spring and summer. Just water and fertilizer.
Next fall, you can wire to style and start eliminating branches you dont want in the final design. I would not remove more than 25% of the foliage per year though

Yes that’s fair. And I wasn’t imagining removing more than maybe 5-10% for first trim next yr. I would only remove a bit of the crotch growth and tiny dead twigs. As stated i do want to trim at least one small branch with a tuft of foliage off to attempt to propagate it to see if its genetically different or if it grows the annoying sparse prickly foliage on a cutting, before next year as an insurance policy in case the tree dies. And when “small” i mean like a matchstick with a tuft of green and some of the crotch growth as heel cuttings. I’m fairly sure that shouldn’t really stress the tree. I do have a picture of the surface rootball i took as i was securing the taproot to the pot as its quite a heavy tree for its height. But its RAW and cant upload.

I need to figure out how to transfer RAW photos to JPEG. Sometimes my phone cam switches the mode annoyingly. Thanks for the info on the 20 min btw; wondered why that happened.

 

[rockm]

Approximately 5 days ago. And yes, I preserved around a gallons worth (maybe slightly more) of the very sandy soil it was growing in (and filled in the hole and sowed a handful of pine seeds in its place).

It’s not like commercial produced desert sand, its more variable in grain with larger gravely bits, down to very fine, almost like silica dust. Added a few cups of larger pea-grape sized gravel to promote drainage (not as a layer at bottom but mixed in) and a few cups of pine bark in theory to promote root development.

This is the only potential clue to its age. And im still not sure how old it could be. But its definitely much older than the 10yr old or so sapling i thought it was given the height and scale foliage. I kind of made a hack job of this cut but here is a pic of the width of the taproot where i cut it relative to the base, and the amount of rings (which i am having trouble counting honestly, because there appears to be “rings within rings” and am not sure if thats just a dry spell in summer of one year or two seperate years.

FWIW, if this is only out of the ground for five days, you have a VERY VERY long time before you can do anything with it. For a collected conifer, that's not a lot of root mass. Also, sandy soil is a problem with collected conifers. They tend to bareroot themselves when the soil is porous. Conifers hate being barerooted.

I would be very cautious about making any plans for it now, beyond just planning on how to keep it alive. You won't know if the tree has successfully survived collection for at least a year. You WILL know when it hasn't survived collection in a month or so.

If it stays green for the next few months, you're doing well. If it starts browning or foliage gets brittle, not so much.

 

[NJtsr95]

Junipers have a growth spurt in spring, one or two in summer (depending on grazing and the weather) and sometimes another in fall before the ring of the year closes.
That makes them hard to count indeed.

For clarity's sake I would only count the well defined ones. If at least, true age is what you care about. It's better to call it younger than it is, than to call it more ancient than it is.
I'm more of a 'it's as old as it looks' kind of bonsai person.

Ok that makes sense! For the record it was growing in an area that was an active sand and gravel mine from the 70s and by the early 1990s it was abandoned according to the USGS maps. I’m assuming its a similar age to the juvenile (and also somewhat stunted but to a far less extreme extent) pines surrounding it, a mix of p echinata; p virginiana, and p rigida or p loblolly x rigida in this location (given the odd bark). Those nearest trees were about 10-20 feet tall on average. I assume the pines and this virginiana were seeded roughly around the same time. Complete shot in the dark guess around 30-40 years is my uneducated guess. I’ll try to get a better angle of the taproot rings or perhaps a cleaner cut through the already severed bit which should make it a bit easier to see theoretically?

 

[Cmd5235]

I'm really excited to see how this one progresses over the next few years. I'm also glad to see someone else on here from this "area"- I'm in SE PA, but have a family place at the Jersey Shore and used to work there- I've spent my life driving through the cedar swamps, and have always wanted to try a decent ERC from that area. Unfortunately I've never found a place to be able to legally collect, and the ERC around here are the typical "bad" examples that we often see. This one looks great and makes me want to redouble my efforts to find a place to collect from in the spring.

 

[ETN_bonsai]

I’ve done a lot wandering around my property to find decent ERC to collect, and I’ve not found anything near this nice. Good find. I hope it becomes a nice bonsai.