Tension and Balance in design

[Bonsai Forest]

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

This may seem like heresy to some… perhaps it is. Sometimes it appears certain bonsai styling justifications are created on top of nature, bonsai or art after the fact.

In other words, cherry picking discrete elements of design and trying to fit these elements on examples …to explain what is not necessarily there. Rather than holistically viewing the objects and saying they don’t actually follow all the “guidlines”. Especially when one hasn’t discussed this interpretation with the artist. This is one of these cases.

Entirely different than a hobbyist blending these elements into a bonsai by intention.

I think it’s a key reason why design is very confusing to novices…

The example above is appears to be a prime example. Dave must of felt the same way (or got some flak about this example.. quite possible knowing the local crowd here) as it does not seem to be present his second edition.

Best
DSD sends

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Dave must of felt the same way (or got some flak about this example.. quite possible knowing the local crowd here) as it does not seem to be present his second edition.

Interesting.

Anyway, I think a lot of the standard styling rules are too often rooted in visual comfort - even if they dont appear to be on the surface. But a great artist combines visual comfort with intellectual/conceptual weight.

 

[leatherback]

styling rules

too often rooted in visual comfort

I am going out on a limb here, but isn't that part of the styling guidelines? On the one hand there is the health of the tree, and on the other, the visual appeal / Feeling of organized naturallness?

To me most of the guidelines focus on how to create a tree that "feels OK", thus, focus on visual elements? Or am I missing the point you are making ?
Honest question!

 

[Bonsai Forest]

This may seem like heresy to some… perhaps it is. Sometimes it appears certain bonsai styling justifications are created on top of nature, bonsai or art after the fact.

In other words, cherry picking discrete elements of design and trying to fit these elements on examples …to explain what is not necessarily there. Rather than holistically viewing the objects and saying they don’t actually follow all the “guidlines”. Especially when one hasn’t discussed this interpretation with the artist. This is one of these cases.

Entirely different than a hobbyist blending these elements into a bonsai by intention.

I think it’s a key reason why design is very confusing to novices…

The example above is appears to be a prime example. Dave must of felt the same way (or got some flak about this example.. quite possible knowing the local crowd here) as it does not seem to be present his second edition.

Best
DSD sends

I think De Groot’s observation about the crossing trunks, windswept flow, and scalene triangle are likely accurate and aligned with what the artist demonstrated and intended to communicate.


They both have crossing trunks, sweep right, and scalene triangle. At least to me it looks intentional by Hiroshige and Guzman as an admirer.


Do you mean Bonsainut critics would compel De Groot to remove this page from the 2nd edition? Is that normal/common?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Always leave room for serendipity, but the composition above looks forced, and may be improved by eliminating the offending tree. To me, this shows better tension through imbalance.

 

[Applicative]

View attachment 555681

something I have sort of wondered -

I'm not convinced the artist would have been using the "rules" up front on an intentional sense given when the art was created and the context / culture it was created in.

Meaning, maybe it just felt "right" or looked pleasing as the artist was creating. I've tried to start considering the rules as guidelines for maximizing specific aesthetic qualities - a ballet dancer pose is more "attractive" than a person slouching over.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I am going out on a limb here, but isn't that part of the styling guidelines? On the one hand there is the health of the tree, and on the other, the visual appeal / Feeling of organized naturallness?

To me most of the guidelines focus on how to create a tree that "feels OK", thus, focus on visual elements? Or am I missing the point you are making ?
Honest question!

My thought is that often in art, the artists' thematic purpose or intellectual concept is the priority and they then attempt to marry that to something visual. With bonsai, and I am echoing @Deep Sea Diver's initial reaction, the artist applies visual laws first and it's not until formal display that greater conceptual ideas outside take hold.

Its the same as a musician playing perfect arpeggios or scales and using basic accepted chord progressions versus understanding the rules but not being shackled by them. Its why Ron Jarzombek and Watchtower will in my eyes always get preference over Yngwie Malmsteen, or why after all these years Holocaust's Hypnosis of Birds is still unique and fresh while 90% of Maiden's catalog is tired to me.

There is nothing intellectually deep about a beautiful flower unless it's place in the garden was chosen to represent something greater.

I also think that at a certain level, the stage of development is important. A tree early on in grow out may be best guided by fundamental principals if a more long term thematic/conceptual goal is not at hand or on the horizon. But once something larger or greater is in vision, the rules need to be broken. Often the broken rule is what makes a masterpiece stand out.

 

[Applicative]

"There is nothing intellectually deep about a beautiful flower unless it's place in the garden was chosen to represent something greater."

I think it's possible less about place. the duality in Buddhism places the observer and observed. it's the act of observation that imparts meaning.

a wild tree has immense meaning on being observed, so much so the artist uses various mediums to capture that.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Its not the act of observation, its the act of purposeful placement and of artist implied thematic/conceptual merit that separates art from nature. Anything altered by human hands is imbued with some human's purpose to change nature in some way. In bonsai, I like to see in finished trees a purpose and theme deeper than "wow, awesome tree". Lenze achieved this. Naka achieved this. Im not so sure that all the rest do though Neil has the mindset to think more thematically and conceptually....

I dont apply human religious/spiritual meaning to nature. To do so otherwise presupposes and justifies a creation/theological mythology to which there is no grounds for me to believe in. So a wild tree observed by a human has no implied meaning. It means a billion different things to each different person. That is to say it has no effective meaning at all.

 

[Applicative]

Its not the act of observation, its the act of purposeful placement and of artist implied thematic/conceptual merit that separates art from nature. Anything altered by human hands is imbued with some human's purpose to change nature in some way. In bonsai, I like to see in finished trees a purpose and theme deeper than "wow, awesome tree". Lenze achieved this. Naka achieved this. Im not so sure that all the rest do though Neil has the mindset to think more thematically and conceptually....

I dont apply human religious/spiritual meaning to nature. To do so otherwise presupposes and justifies a creation/theological mythology to which there is no grounds for me to believe in. So a wild tree observed by a human has no implied meaning. It means a billion different things to each different person. That is to say it has no effective meaning at all.

Thanks for sharing, respectfully what I'm trying to say is I believe this is a more postmodern western view, and the Japanese aesthetic and historical tradition is both different and foreign.

wabi sabi has inherent beauty because of the passage of time. the cherry blossom is more beautiful because it's so short lived, etc etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by creationism or theology. Just that Dualism is a concept in Buddhism that has a strong meaning.

I'm curious if the OP art posted was done with the intention of following rules, or the rules are imposed much later by critics, others have noticed this in other media.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

@Bonsai Forest
I think De Groot’s observation about the crossing trunks, windswept flow, and scalene triangle are likely accurate and aligned with what the artist demonstrated and intended to communicate.

…. Interesting. This is just what I meant. Other folks come along years later and attempt to overlay the concepts of styling years after the artist created the image.

Have questioned a couple bonsai artists about how they go about creating their designs. … and how they foster affect in their work. Both agreed - I use what is there in a way that pleases me with no thought about styling rules…. (Yet likely they have styling patterns so engrained in the fabric of their being that what pleases embodies ‘good’ design)

… On the other hand, most accomplished bonsai folks I’ve talked with when asked what can one do to improve my skills in creating good bonsai, the stock reply seems to be along the lines of, “See lots of good bonsai and look at past Kokofu etc albums.”

(Aside …Which, in my most sardonic moments, I sometimes feel like one is being told to use these examples as templates for my work… which is not such a bad idea… at least to begin with!!)

View attachment 556412

They both have crossing trunks, sweep right, and scalene triangle. At least to me it looks intentional by Hiroshige and Guzman as an admirer.

View attachment 556413

…Somehow totally doubt the artist drew this in his studio without actually sitting down at the scene and getting at least a prep sketch of what was actually there.

Do you mean Bonsainut critics would compel De Groot to remove this page from the 2nd edition? Is that normal/common?

…. Funny. Actually am from the Puget Sound local area. Sincerely doubt Dave pays any attention at all to BonsaiNut. Just saying our local Puget Sound Bonsai Association folks likely asked questions about this image. When he was around doing book signing at club meetings there were many folks asking questions about different examples. Likely this, and other club’s members input in the intervening years between editions informed quite a few of the changes to 2nd Edition

… Additionally, in another example, always wondered how his inclusion of part of a musical score was value added… Given many folks don’t read music…and did appear in the second edition. Chalked this off due to Dave being an accomplished professional musician in his own right and can understand how he’d want to bring his love and deep understanding of music into his works.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I appreciate the conversation on this because I dont think of meaning from any particular worldview, just what Ive come to believe from my years of music criticism in a genre that is always pushing boundaries.

Music is often described as "sound" in a way that some believe that the sound of the wind, for example, is music, but I believe sound only becomes music once it is purposefully arranged. Its this purposeful arrangement which allows for objective artistic critique. Did the artist achieve the presentation of thematic goals? Did the musician blend the right dynamics and melody? Did the bonsai master depict struggle and age in a particular environment effectively? Who/what is there to critique in a natural untouched object? These are foundations of implied meaning, not our observance of something untouched.

Natural sound is not music. A bird's chirping is music because the bird has purposefully arranged it's chirp a certain way, at a certain time. This applies to other art as well. Your example of wabi-sabi is just another example of humans attaching meaning to something which nature developed completely indepedently. This, whether it be eastern or western based, humans believing nature(God) has purposefully hidden meaning in all these things is a concept which I dont ascribe to.

Honestly, It lessens the intellectual and purposeful pursuits of humans and leaves way too much credit where credit is not due, in terms of creating meaning.

I guess my ultimate point is that there should be recognized a difference between something's meaning and the interpretation of that meaning. One is objective and one is subjective. If an artist meant to convey one idea and the informed majority didnt recognize that idea, the artwork is objectively a failure, even if it might be otherwiss beautiful.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

It's perfectly fine to break the rules... if you know why you are breaking them. The very nature of design is to be purposeful. Most of the time I see rules being broken it is because people don't understand they are breaking them. Then there are people who feel rule breaking, in and of itself, is being clever or artful. If you break a rule, just be prepared to answer the question "why?" - even if the person you are answering is yourself.

I really like the first image. The second not so much, because it feels artificial and forced - particularly because you are dealing with a fused root design where all the parts of the tree are supposed to be subjected to the same forces of nature. It also feels heavy and cluttered - like you could remove half of the composition and be left with a better result.

 

[Applicative]

@Bonsai Forest
I think De Groot’s observation about the crossing trunks, windswept flow, and scalene triangle are likely accurate and aligned with what the artist demonstrated and intended to communicate.

…. Interesting. This is just what I meant. Other folks come along years later and attempt to overlay the concepts of styling years after the artist created the image.

Have questioned a couple bonsai artists about how they go about creating their designs. … and how they foster affect in their work. Both agreed - I use what is there in a way that pleases me with no thought about styling rules…. (Yet likely they have styling patterns so engrained in the fabric of their being that what pleases embodies ‘good’ design)

… On the other hand, most accomplished bonsai folks I’ve talked with when asked what can one do to improve my skills in creating good bonsai, the stock reply seems to be along the lines of, “See lots of good bonsai and look at past Kokofu etc albums.”

(Aside …Which, in my most sardonic moments, I sometimes feel like one is being told to use these examples as templates for my work… which is not such a bad idea… at least to begin with!!)

View attachment 556412

They both have crossing trunks, sweep right, and scalene triangle. At least to me it looks intentional by Hiroshige and Guzman as an admirer.

View attachment 556413

…Somehow totally doubt the artist drew this in his studio without actually sitting down at the scene and getting at least a prep sketch of what was actually there.

Do you mean Bonsainut critics would compel De Groot to remove this page from the 2nd edition? Is that normal/common?

…. Funny. Actually am from the Puget Sound local area. Sincerely doubt Dave pays any attention at all to BonsaiNut. Just saying our local Puget Sound Bonsai Association folks likely asked questions about this image. When he was around doing book signing at club meetings there were many folks asking questions about different examples. Likely this, and other club’s members input in the intervening years between editions informed quite a few of the changes to 2nd Edition

… Additionally, in another example, always wondered how his inclusion of part of a musical score was value added… Given many folks don’t read music…and did appear in the second edition. Chalked this off due to Dave being an accomplished professional musician in his own right and can understand how he’d want to bring his love and deep understanding of music into his works.

Cheers
DSD sends

This is a wise comment. Appreciate it.