Sudden coast redwood sapling wilting?

[Wood]

My coast redwood sapling has suddenly started wilting after a lot of healthy growth this season.

It was doing great on Thursday. Friday morning, it started to droop noticeably, and this morning it looked like this.

My suspicion is over watering, but I wouldn't have guessed that it would appear so suddenly. I live in a fourth floor apartment, so my balcony gets a lot of sunlight and wind. I've tried to avoid dessication with a Blumat carrot/water wick and daily misting of the foliage. Friday morning, I moved it to under the bench for more shade, and tilted the basket to hopefully let it drain better.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance!

 

[casun]

The daily misting is good but the water wick is probably keeping it too wet. Mine wilt quickly from not enough water but they spring back very quickly. I’d remove the wick and let it dry out a bit.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Soil is too wet. You have algae growing on your soil particles. Additionally, you have a very small amount of soil for a pond basket. Because the pond basket is vented on all sides, it dries out very quickly, particularly if there is wind.

In the short term I would shelter from the wind while misting the foliage. Try to allow the soil to dry out a little more between waterings... without letting it go bone dry. Longer term I would at least double the amount of soil in the basket.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

This sort of "sudden collapse", I've seen before. As BNut and Casun suggested, looks like your tree is too wet.

So first possible cause is too wet. The cure is to allow to get just about dry between watering. But don't let it get dry enough to wilt significantly. Wilting from drought can cause its own set of problems.

Often it happens when you have allowed a plant to dry to the point of moderate to severe wilt. When it wilts, new root tips die. Then you get back on top of the watering. The soil then stays wet, longer, because the dead root tips are no longer absorbing water. The dead root tips allow a point of entry for catastrophic fatal fungal and bacterial infections. If these enter, the plant is basically doomed.

So key is to have your pot go from wet, when freshly watered, to almost, but not quite dry. Then water just before the tree wilts.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Yes... it is a little bit of a nefarious problem because when you see the tree wilt you assume the solution is to water more.

 

[RKatzin]

In my experience with Coastal Redwood I don't think it's possible to over water these trees. If I don't give a good soaking everyday and twice if it's over 90F they'll be sagging by day two.
I did have a problem with some brown foliage and losing some interior twigs, in spite of my daily watering. I realized that the pot was getting hit by the sun all afternoon and was getting quite hot. I built a baracade with some old cedar grow boxes all around the exposed pot. Within a week a whole new batch of new growth appeared on the tips of all the branches all over the tree. I was cooking the roots.
I don't think the pond basket is helping your cause with this tree. I would suggest a solid body container with a fast draining mix. Redwood roots are very sensitive and to get your tree up and running you want those roots to run on, just like the top, with some free range legging out. It's not going to get away from you and you'll always be able to rein it in once you have it to rein in. This tree wants to be 300' tall and it has the genetics to do so.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

In my experience with Coastal Redwood I don't think it's possible to over water these trees.

Have you grown them in a Florida swamp?

That's what we're talking about here. This is not a case of a deep pot with good bonsai mix, where you water 2x a day, the excess drains out the bottom, and you're gtg. This is a shallow soil mix in a pond basket on a windy and sunny 4th floor balcony. The soil dries out within hours, so the OP has tried to fix the situation by using a water wick - ie keeping the soil wet all the time. There is algae growing on the soil particles, which means they NEVER dry out - not the top layer of the soil so certainly not the root ball. In my opinion, you have a cascading set of problems: Dry and windy environment + pond basket + shallow soil = soil dries almost instantly = using water wick and mister = sad roots. And when the tree wilts, you water more. And then it wilts more so you water more... etc.

I may be wrong, and it may be a completely unrelated issue because trees are trees and sometimes you think it is one thing but it's not. However I have experienced this before with conifers numerous times where a tree wilts because you are drowning the roots.

Otherwise I agree with your recommendation: more soil + less permeable container. Then water less frequently and the rootball stays moist... but not saturated. And all my love for @RKatzin ... it is almost impossible to have a conversation on the Internet without sounding like a pompous ass if you disagree with someone. I totally agree with the fact that coast redwood is a temperate rainforest tree... so how could you overwater? But I have experienced it... not only redwoods but white pines as well.

 

[RKatzin]

Well you've certainly have a tree about as far removed from its natural element as possible. I've read many accounts of folks in the SE trying to grow Redwoods, both in ground and in containers and it's usually not a happy story. Most are wanting to know how to save their tree, many after several years of going strong and then sudden demise.
I'm not saying you can't do it or even that you shouldn't try, but obviously this tree will need some special conditions and extra care to survive in your area. I love Buttonwood, but I can't keep them here without special conditions, which I'm not set up for. Just one of those things I have to live with.

 

[Wood]

Thanks for all the info. This discussion is definitely enlightening

The soil absolutely was too wet at the time and it's been cloudy and rainy today, so it hasn't helped much. Still pretty new at this and it's my first time seeing the effects of overwatering. At least I'm learning something? The speed that this happened really spooked me.

In the short term, I'm letting it dry out (as much as the weather will permit). I've added more soil to the top of the basket and lightly chopsticked it into the current soil mass. Hopefully that'll combine the two instead of making the top layer act like a blanket.

I'm not sure I want to disturb the tree now with a solid pot. That might be something I reconsider in the spring. Once the soil has less moisture/better water-oxygen exchange, I might wrap the sides with plastic bags/fabric to protect the roots more.

What does recovery look like for this? (Presuming that the issue is overwatering) will it bounce back after the roots get more oxygen, or will it take much longer to bounce back?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

IMO keeping a Coastal Redwood tree in a pond basket on a balcony is flat out cruising for a bruising. Expecting it to recover now… one can only hope. They are sturdy trees however, so I’d call it 50-50.

I’ve three Coastal Redwoods and a Dawn Redwood growing out that started off this size. Each is in solid 3 gallon nursery pot, and believe it or not, enriched garden soil with a pumice drain layer. They are all healthy, growing like gangbusters with over 1 - 1.5” diameter trunks, foliage and roots growing fabulously. Each has been cut back 3x now. All will be put into larger pots for a year or two final grow out session before being ready for bonsai media.

I once heard Ryan Neil talk about growing out young trees. He said bonsai media should be used to grow out young trees. It sounded a bit over the edge, but I tried it and it seems to work for these redwoods.

Just food for thought. While I’m not encouraging you to change to enriched potting soil at this point, but getting it out of the pond basket would definitely be a wise choice

cheers
DSD sends

 

[RKatzin]

I really can't say, as your condition is the opposite of what I see here, but they are a very resilient tree and usually a strong, aggressive grower, and in my situation recovery is evident almost immediately. May be a while if you've suffered root damage. They are one of the easiest trees to take cuttings, rooting up very well.
I have seen pieces of Redwood bark growing in a trough of water with a dozen shoots. They sell them at roadside stands. So, yeah, go figger the over watering doesn't ring true, to me. I certainly wish you the best with it. They're a very special tree, to me at least and I certainly wish everyone could have one.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I once heard Ryan Neil talk about growing out young trees. He said bonsai media should be used to grow out young trees. It sounded a bit over the edge, but I tried it and it seems to work for these redwoods.

Oops, actually Ryan said bonsai media should not be used to grow out young trees. Sorry about that!
best
DSD sends

 

[Wood]

Oops, actually Ryan said bonsai media should not be used to grow out young trees. Sorry about that!
best
DSD sends

Glad I read your follow up

It's currently in a 1:2 mixture of potting soil and perlite. It's what Andrew Robson suggested for growing out developmental deciduous trees, and I figured it would work well enough for this one. Good to know I'm not far off

IMO keeping a Coastal Redwood tree in a pond basket on a balcony is flat out cruising for a bruising...

While I’m not encouraging you to change to enriched potting soil at this point, but getting it out of the pond basket would definitely be a wise choice...

I've seen a lot of people encouraging pond baskets/colanders for growing out. What's usually the determining factors for when it's a good or bad idea?

 

[Wood]

They're a very special tree, to me at least and I certainly wish everyone could have one.

Yeah, this one was actually used in the tree planting part of my wedding ceremony, so I really hope it pulls through

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I've seen a lot of people encouraging pond baskets/colanders for growing out. What's usually the determining factors for when it's a good or bad idea?

Great, you are listening to Andrew. He’s a good guy.

For myself the cut is whether or not the tree is more moisture loving, it’s developmental stage and the goals I have for the tree. Others may have differing opinions.

You have a young moisture loving tree that needs to grow lots so you can create its base structure. So it’s in the beginning of the structural stage. Building trunk growth fast is the name of the game here. That means lots of branches, which need lots of healthy roots. Not a time for a continual root pruning environment. You have to build the trunk, so robust root tips are important.

IMHO Thats the goal. Build a robust trunk. In this case root-work can come later.

Here’s my take. Pond basket design (esp. in an open area) allows the outer edges and top of the media to dry out fast…. while the core stays wet. This leaves you in an endless loop of watering… trying to hydrate the seemingly totally dry media while at the same time the pond basket design is accelerating the drying of the outer root tips, inhibiting growth. At the same time the inner area of the pond basket retains more water, creating a moisture imbalance. As more water enters the system a loop is created, developing a soggy root core, an perfect environment to promote fungal growth.

What may be adding to the issue is one of the majority components of potting soil is peat, which actually becomes hydrophobic, resists rewetting, when it dries out. A nursery pot and especially easing off on watering will quickly change the dynamics of the system, evening out the moisture of the root ball.

BTW Coast Redwoods get the majority of their water through their needles esp in summer, by taking in the Coastal fog. So mist often while cutting way back on watering.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Potawatomi13]

I've seen a lot of people encouraging pond baskets/colanders for growing out. What's usually the determining factors for when it's a good or bad idea?

These hurry to develop root systems more compact instead of old tried and true methods. Seems most do for this reason. Personally do not encourage more plastic waste in environment and will not use.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

To be honest, I dropped out of the conversation because in over 30 years, I only tried coast redwood once, a long time ago, and it died. I decided because they are not winter hardy here, north of Chicago, I would not try again.

I do have some success with dawn redwood, but that is an entirely different creature. Dawn redwood grows much more like a bald cypress than anything else.