Some interesting D.E. stuff

[CoreSeverin]

I found this short factoid after buying some D.E. from AutoZone part number: 7133. Turns out it's basically monto clay! At least thats what i got out of readng the msds. Did I buy the wrong stuff?
Then after Google searching I found this little tidbit. I'm getting the impression that a lot of this stuff is all the same thing.
http://www.absorbentproductsltd.com/phone/diatomaceous-earth-calcined-vs-non-calcined.html

 

[SU2]

I found this short factoid after buying some D.E. from AutoZone part number: 7133. Turns out it's basically monto clay! At least thats what i got out of readng the msds. Did I buy the wrong stuff?
Then after Google searching I found this little tidbit. I'm getting the impression that a lot of this stuff is all the same thing.
http://www.absorbentproductsltd.com/phone/diatomaceous-earth-calcined-vs-non-calcined.html

Read that link- gotta say I'm still very very unclear whether they're implying the majority of these products are, or are not the calcined type....which type do you suspect NAPA's to be? And Autozone's seems similar? (how was the particle-size of Autozone's? I use NAPA's and am pretty limited in how much I can use% due to the terribly-small particle size!)

I don't know what monto clay is but I've always had an instinctive idea of the stuff (DE) behaving like a clay-type product, I know it's actually fossils (neat ) but it acts like kitty litter in a way (actually, in some places it IS kitty litter!), the stuff is a fantastic aggregate IMO and, in non-akadama-producing countries (most countries, iirc!), if DE were available in larger-granules it'd be a fantastic replacement, it holds more water / has a comparable CEC, seems to break-down slower than akadama....it's just that the NAPA stuff most people use is such a tiny avg.particle size :/

 

[GGB]

I went to a napa store to pick up "part 8822" and when I got there the guy told me that was an old part number, he sold me the "same stuff" with the new number and it is breaking down pretty darn fast. Hoping everything holds steady until spring 2019 so I can get it into something else. Be careful out there

 

[Cypress187]

This stuff is more used in bonsai as it's intended use , I use cat-litter clay (baked clay), don't know if it's available outside the Netherlands.

 

[0soyoung]

I found this short factoid after buying some D.E. from AutoZone part number: 7133. Turns out it's basically monto clay! At least thats what i got out of readng the msds. Did I buy the wrong stuff?
Then after Google searching I found this little tidbit. I'm getting the impression that a lot of this stuff is all the same thing.
http://www.absorbentproductsltd.com/phone/diatomaceous-earth-calcined-vs-non-calcined.html

I never heard the term "monto clay" before. My googling turned up links saying it is the same stuff sold under the brand name "Turface". I have and continue to use Turface for all my bonsai. It works well as long as one uses 'chemical' fertilizers. Organics tend to clog it up and create 'turfcrete'.
The particle size may be different from Turface and that possibly could be a problem. MVP particles are about 2 mm in size. The saturation zone will be higher with smaller grains (i.e., you will need to use deeper pots to avoid root anoxia). Larger grains will have a lower saturation zone height, higher air filled porosity and lower water retention (i.e., 'drier').

 

[coh]

I went to a napa store to pick up "part 8822" and when I got there the guy told me that was an old part number, he sold me the "same stuff" with the new number and it is breaking down pretty darn fast. Hoping everything holds steady until spring 2019 so I can get it into something else. Be careful out there

It's still listed on their website. I think that particular store was just out of it and the guy wanted to make a sale. The other stuff that is available is definitely a softer clay material that will break down very quickly. Similar stuff (soft clay) is also available at Walmart, Lowes, etc. I think I've seen it labeled "oil dri" but it goes under various names.

 

[GGB]

Yeah, I got a real mess on my hands with this crap. buyer beware

 

[CoreSeverin]

Monto clay is turface. I havnt sifted the AutoZone stuff yet, but is really seems like there is a LOT of particle size variation. I havnt put any trees in it yet, either. I did try to test it for water retention and it didn't dry out too fast though.

 

[coh]

Monto clay is turface. I havnt sifted the AutoZone stuff yet, but is really seems like there is a LOT of particle size variation. I havnt put any trees in it yet, either. I did try to test it for water retention and it didn't dry out too fast though.

Does it become really soft when wet? What about if it freezes (if your plants will be exposed to freezing during the winter)?

Turface is really hard and takes a long time to break down. The NAPA 8822 DE is not quite as hard but holds up pretty well. Most of the other clay products sold as absorbants, are quite soft and will turn to mush when wet or after freezing (when wet). Those are not desirable properties.

 

[CoreSeverin]

@coh I havnt tried to test for that yet. I'll try to find out how well it holds up. I only have a few trees to work with, since I'm just getting started in bonsai, so I'm more than willing to try just about anything

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

DE is short for diatomaceous earth, fossilized skeletons of fresh water diatoms. Nearly 100% silica. Zero clay. It has nothing in it's origin to do with clay.

Clay is very fine particles of eroded rock, deposited as sediment usually moved by water. Its chemical properties are determined by the parent rock material. When clay deposis are deep enough some metamorphosis may occur changing the properties. Chemistry of clay gets complicated fast. It is clay that gets calcined not diatomaceous earth.

 

[sparklemotion]

Not to pick on you, specifically @Leo in N E Illinois , but soil misinformation is probably my #1 pet peeve in this hobby. (Japanese beetles are getting up there though...)

It is clay that gets calcined not diatomaceous earth.

Some diatomaceous earth is calcined. Example products include non-food grade DE powder and AxisDE (a coarse form of which is available in reasonable quantities from @milehigh_7).

"Monto clay" is a short form of "montmorillonite clay." It is often the major component of bentonite clay. Bentonite clay is sometimes also sold as Fuller's Earth. Montmorillonite is something like 2:1 silica:alumina, DE is more like 10:1. Either material can have some iron oxide mixed in, depending on the mining source. As far as "origins" go, clays and diatomaeous earth are both sedimentary deposits of fine particles. The DE particles just happened to be life forms first.

What I have managed to piece together from various soil wars/well-written resources/Youtube/MSDSs is that: If you are looking to purchase a garage/home/automotive absorbent in North America for use in your bonsai soil it needs to be:

• Calcined montmorillonite/bentonite clay (Turface, Oil-Dri, Safe-T-Sorb, Axis Ceramic, Pro's Choice, Bonsai Jack's Monto Clay);
• Calcined or uncalcined DE (Napa 8822, Opti-Sorb, AxisDE, Blue Ribbon DE Cat Litter, Can Dry); or
• Pumice (Stall Dry)

If you buy a product made of montmorillonite/bentonite clay that is not calcined (most clumping cat litters, Fuller's Earth), you will have goo in your pots. When you are talking to retailers of mined absorbents they will tell you that all the products are interchangeable. This is because for the purpose of absorbing spills they pretty much are (with some +/- for weight/dustiness).

If you're lucky, you can go to the manufacturer's website and find the MSDS or some kind of product information to figure out what you're getting. Sometimes it's trickier and you have to look at the percentage of "free crystalline vs. amorphous silica."

Things I don't know:

• Does calcination make a difference in the effectiveness of DE as a soil component?
  • Calcined DE is "hard" (not squishable), but maybe the squishableness of regular DE gives it some self-scaling mojo (à la akadama)?
• Does the percentage of alumina in montmorillonite make a difference in the effectiveness of calcined clay as a soil component?

I have theories about both of those things, but no really way to test.

 

[milehigh_7]

First and please hear me. I known nothing of akadama. However regular US clays or DE is useless to us in bonsai in a non-calcined state.

@sparklemotion I think you and @Leo in N E Illinois were saying the same thing for the most part. The only advantage I have in the discussion about DE (and some clay products) is that I have spend a lot of time reading, and corresponding with the actual facilities that mine and produce these products and I am a distributor. The stuff I get comes on pallets from the mine.

If anyone has a question about a product, I can make a phone call to the product rep and get it answered. I have always been super firm on clay and DE being separate things, however there is one singular exception that I know of. Learning of this stuff was fascinating to me and if you live in Europe, I would look into it:

http://www.imerys-additivesformetallurgy.com/our-resources/moler/

I will jump on later if anyone has specific questions.

 

[sparklemotion]

I will jump on later if anyone has specific questions.

I'll bite: is EP Minerals the origin point for the DE products from Absorbent Products Limited? Can you find out what what the differences are between Can Dry Supreme, Premium, and Plus?

Also, does EP have a calcined DE product with a similar size to OptiSorb (mostly 1/8" to 1/4")? I have an idea of how to test calcined v. not calcined, but the only calcined DE I have is too large to make any useful comparisons.

 

[SU2]

It's still listed on their website. I think that particular store was just out of it and the guy wanted to make a sale. The other stuff that is available is definitely a softer clay material that will break down very quickly. Similar stuff (soft clay) is also available at Walmart, Lowes, etc. I think I've seen it labeled "oil dri" but it goes under various names.

Oh no @GGB I think coh is very right here, they probably thought you were just looking for an absorptive product and BS'd by saying there was a new product#...I've gotten 8822 there as recent as ~2mo ago, and if I google "napa 8822" it certainly seems they're still selling the same product...if you got something else my guess is it's bad (based on what you said further down-thread it seems to be the case ), if that's the case I hope the specimen are hardy enough for a 2nd re-potting (did you bare-root the specimen you potted w/ the stuff or were they just 'slip potted' w/o much root-ball disturbance?)

Turface is really hard and takes a long time to break down. The NAPA 8822 DE is not quite as hard but holds up pretty well. Most of the other clay products sold as absorbants, are quite soft and will turn to mush when wet or after freezing (when wet). Those are not desirable properties.

Where do people commonly get their turface from? It seems like a great product to try but it looks like I've gotta have an 'in' with someone who works at a baseball stadium to access it lol! Turface seems like a much better product than napa's DE (which I do like very much and use quite a lot of), seems to hold a bit less water and have a slightly higher particle size, both of which are flaws with the 8822 (I off-set those flaws by just adding coarse perlite to off-set the DE, like whenever I'm using DE there's a roughly equal amount of perlite, the two of them making up to 80% of some of my mixes!)

DE is short for diatomaceous earth, fossilized skeletons of fresh water diatoms. Nearly 100% silica. Zero clay. It has nothing in it's origin to do with clay.

Clay is very fine particles of eroded rock, deposited as sediment usually moved by water. Its chemical properties are determined by the parent rock material. When clay deposis are deep enough some metamorphosis may occur changing the properties. Chemistry of clay gets complicated fast. It is clay that gets calcined not diatomaceous earth.

I can't help but ask- do you work in an industry that taught you this or is it just self-researched knowledge? In any event, thanks a ton for the info!!

 

[SU2]

• Calcined montmorillonite/bentonite clay (Turface, Oil-Dri, Safe-T-Sorb, Axis Ceramic, Pro's Choice, Bonsai Jack's Monto Clay);

• Calcined or uncalcined DE (Napa 8822, Opti-Sorb, AxisDE, Blue Ribbon DE Cat Litter, Can Dry); or

• Pumice (Stall Dry)

Besides NAPA's 8822, are any of the other things you've listed here commonly-available across the US? I'd love to try *any* of the others you mention (especially Stall Dry, Turface and AxisDE) but have no idea where I'd get them (actually I think the axisDE is from MH? @milehigh_7 I'd love to know price for minimum order to check it out but your TOL site is down )

 

[substratum]

I picked up some 8822 a few weeks ago, and the guy said he had "hundreds" of bags of it in the back.

Here's an article about DE particle size that @Mellow Mullet has on his Heart of Dixie Bonsai page:
http://www.heartofdixiebonsai.com/c...ricks/40-what-about-napa-floor-dry?Itemid=101

 

[coh]

Oh no @GGB
Where do people commonly get their turface from? It seems like a great product to try but it looks like I've gotta have an 'in' with someone who works at a baseball stadium to access it lol! Turface seems like a much better product than napa's DE (which I do like very much and use quite a lot of), seems to hold a bit less water and have a slightly higher particle size, both of which are flaws with the 8822 (I off-set those flaws by just adding coarse perlite to off-set the DE, like whenever I'm using DE there's a roughly equal amount of perlite, the two of them making up to 80% of some of my mixes!)

I've found turface MVP at local turf stores (they sell sod, turf supplies, stuff for sports fields, etc). There was another place called John Deere Landscaping that used to sell turface allsport, from what I've seen the MVP has slightly larger particle sizes, but still a lot of each bag must be discarded for size. I have a bag of the 8822 and I think the particle size was similar to the turface but I haven't used any in a while so can't say for sure. Both the 8822 and the turface are on the small side. Supposedly there is another DE product called optisorb (I think) that has larger particles than the 8822 but I haven't picked up any of that to compare.

 

[GGB]

@SU2 I believe so, a friend of mine just picked up 8822, different bag and everything. It's fine, I never ever get something right the first time I try. Why would buying DE be any different. A weird curse I was born with, on the other hand I'm extremely lucky.

 

[milehigh_7]

I've found turface MVP at local turf stores (they sell sod, turf supplies, stuff for sports fields, etc). There was another place called John Deere Landscaping that used to sell turface allsport, from what I've seen the MVP has slightly larger particle sizes, but still a lot of each bag must be discarded for size. I have a bag of the 8822 and I think the particle size was similar to the turface but I haven't used any in a while so can't say for sure. Both the 8822 and the turface are on the small side. Supposedly there is another DE product called optisorb (I think) that has larger particles than the 8822 but I haven't picked up any of that to compare.

Optisorb is a nice size but non-calcined. I used it for a year before I learned the difference. It completely broke down in one year and we don't even freeze.