So I need help deciding how to start over..?

Bearhat9000

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Hello,

So I recently moved to a permanent spot after being transient for a little less than a year, and in that time a majority (save one) of my plants died due to circumstances unknown to me (they were in my mother's care, but also I wired one pretty hard the year prior, and the others were weak and stressed from travel). So now I'd like to start over....

I have a West facing balcony that gets sunlight after ~12:00ish, and an East facing porch that gets it in the morning. My knowledge of bonsai was basic as of a year ago, but having not thought about it in a while I am in need of a basics refresher tbh, and also am looking for suggestions on good starter trees that might be a little less temperamental to take care of?

Please share your thoughts,

Thank You <3
 

Relknes

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first, where are you located?
Juniper, maple, and elm tend to be good starter trees, but it depends on your climate.
 

sorce

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I Used to rock E and W like that.

Maples, Boxwood, shade tolerant, and newly collected stuff east.

Juniper, pine, and other non-burning plants west.

Welcome Back!

Good you got roof!

Sorce
 

Bearhat9000

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I moved back to Chicago if that helps, collecting something local is gonna be kinda tough lol
 

milehigh_7

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Welcome back, if it's any comfort I understand where you are coming from. I am about a year and a half into starting over after a pretty rocky period myself. Be patient and learn your growing limitations and don't try to reach for a tree that you can't grow where you are. That will just frustrate you.

I always advise folk to try and work with what grows wild and what is used as landscape where they are. Take a look around and let's narrow that down to a few species that might do good with your growing limits. Go walk through some parks and such. Also, put your location in your profile.
 

Bearhat9000

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Welcome back, if it's any comfort I understand where you are coming from. I am about a year and a half into starting over after a pretty rocky period myself. Be patient and learn your growing limitations and don't try to reach for a tree that you can't grow where you are. That will just frustrate you.

I always advise folk to try and work with what grows wild and what is used as landscape where they are. Take a look around and let's narrow that down to a few species that might do good with your growing limits. Go walk through some parks and such. Also, put your location in your profile.

Chicago, Illinois :)
 

sorce

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I moved back to Chicago if that helps, collecting something local is gonna be kinda tough lol

Bro....
So Not So!

I look for stuff growing in cracks at the curb and such...next to ligtpoles....

Anywhere Debris piles up...and sometimes they layer themselves in it.

And if you're in the "good" part of the SS...
You know that debris don't get swept!

Field day!

Sorce
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Welcome back. Sorce and I and several others are Chicago area members. Urban collecting is very possible. A walk down an alley, or past any of the many abandoned vacant spaced will have a share of weed trees, especially elms & buckthorn. Then there's the possibility of stumbling on a home or business replacing landscape shrubs. Lots of possibilities. And then you have Hidden Gardens and BC Bonsai as local sources of bonsai in various stages of development. Plus the upcoming August bonsai show at Chicago Botanic Garden.

If I was to start over, I would start with the species that grew better for me in the past, not the ones I kept killing. Those would be my first.

Second, I add a few species that keep me fascinated. I like flowers, in all seasons. So I have a few flowering quince and azalea to cover blooming early and later in spring. Stewartia for summer, crepe myrtle would be good too. Autumn I have persimmon for fruit though mine hasn't bloomed yet. You get the idea.

I definitely would get at least a dozen trees, enough to give you enough work to do so you don't over work your trees. For me I need close to 100 to keep from overworking my trees, but many of mine are young and need to just grow.

Finally, budget for classes. Spend as much or more on classes, workshops and time with visiting artists as possible. You can't learn bonsai from the internet. It is a 3 dimensional art, and there's a lot of little things nobody bothers to write about that makes all the difference.

Those are my suggestions.
 

Bearhat9000

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Bro....
So Not So!

I look for stuff growing in cracks at the curb and such...next to ligtpoles....

Anywhere Debris piles up...and sometimes they layer themselves in it.

And if you're in the "good" part of the SS...
You know that debris don't get swept!

Field day!

Sorce

Welcome back. Sorce and I and several others are Chicago area members. Urban collecting is very possible. A walk down an alley, or past any of the many abandoned vacant spaced will have a share of weed trees, especially elms & buckthorn. Then there's the possibility of stumbling on a home or business replacing landscape shrubs. Lots of possibilities. And then you have Hidden Gardens and BC Bonsai as local sources of bonsai in various stages of development. Plus the upcoming August bonsai show at Chicago Botanic Garden.

If I was to start over, I would start with the species that grew better for me in the past, not the ones I kept killing. Those would be my first.

Second, I add a few species that keep me fascinated. I like flowers, in all seasons. So I have a few flowering quince and azalea to cover blooming early and later in spring. Stewartia for summer, crepe myrtle would be good too. Autumn I have persimmon for fruit though mine hasn't bloomed yet. You get the idea.

I definitely would get at least a dozen trees, enough to give you enough work to do so you don't over work your trees. For me I need close to 100 to keep from overworking my trees, but many of mine are young and need to just grow.

Finally, budget for classes. Spend as much or more on classes, workshops and time with visiting artists as possible. You can't learn bonsai from the internet. It is a 3 dimensional art, and there's a lot of little things nobody bothers to write about that makes all the difference.

Those are my suggestions.

Guys, you are both my heros. Thank you so much, I'm going to keep a look out on my way to and from work, etc... from now on, I'm already thinking of some I know :)

One last question, isn't it illegal to take trees from public property ? I.E. empty lots, parks, the street ?

Have you ever been yelled at?
 

sorce

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Guys, you are both my heros. Thank you so much, I'm going to keep a look out on my way to and from work, etc... from now on, I'm already thinking of some I know :)

One last question, isn't it illegal to take trees from public property ? I.E. empty lots, parks, the street ?

Have you ever been yelled at?

Talk to the dude at the Park about scrub saplings in fences...

Anything repeatedly cut back....

Everyone wants that stuff gone, they're just not paid, or too lazy, to dig em.

"Weed" trees, thats why.
People call these things weeds.

Plus...
If it's in a place where a full grown tree will eventually tear up concrete, fences, ligjtpoles, you're doing someone a favor.

Asking never hurts.

Sorce
 

ConorDash

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Gonna have to disagree with "can't learn bonsai from the Internet". Yes, I understand but no, I disagree.

Obviously I have my own trees which I learn from but all my knowledge from what to do is based off internet, talking to people, reading, watching, etc. Internet is a huge part of learning for many people because we simply don't have the opinions. I can't travel to classes or teachers, so this is what I have. I would be very disheartened to think the only learning aid I have, is useless.
 

my nellie

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... ...I would be very disheartened to think the only learning aid I have, is useless.
No Conor, by no means internet is useless. BUT looking live at one person doing e.g. wiring is completely different than watching a video.
Have you ever attended a workshop with someone who knows what he's doing?
Then you know what I am talking about.
You have the opportunity to ask him in person your question at the very moment the deed is being done.
If he notices that you are doing wiring slightly wrong he will tell you, he will guide your hand and show you how to do it correctly.
It's completely different, believe me!
Another example, let's say you are reading about substrate and everything you read is clear to you but at some point one question comes in your mind. Now you don't have the writerof the article in front of you to address your question.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Gonna have to disagree with "can't learn bonsai from the Internet". Yes, I understand but no, I disagree.

Obviously I have my own trees which I learn from but all my knowledge from what to do is based off internet, talking to people, reading, watching, etc. Internet is a huge part of learning for many people because we simply don't have the opinions. I can't travel to classes or teachers, so this is what I have. I would be very disheartened to think the only learning aid I have, is useless.

I've been doing bonsai for over 40+ years, I started while I was in high school, around 1970, when I as 15 years old. The first 25 years or so I was entirely self taught. Books, magazines, and finally in the 1990's after Al Gore ''invented'' the internet, I was a heavy consumer of ''internet knowledge'', I still am a heavy Internet user, or I wouldn't be here typing. (the part about Al Gore is a joke, don't get bent over the actual history of the internet) So in 2004 I was looking at my oldest in my care bonsai tree, a pomegranate I had been watering for at least 28 years, and a cork bark Japanese black pine I had been working on for 18 years, I looked at both and decided there was something really wrong. They did not look like trees, they didn't look like convincing bonsai. Both had enough years that they SHOULD HAVE looked better than they did. Basically, my trees looked like crap and I could not figure out what was wrong. I realized I obviously had ''missed the point''.

That is when I decided to join the Milwaukee bonsai society to take advantage of their local member's experience, and the fact that they bring in visiting masters. Bonsai is a 3 dimensional art, and no 2 dimensional representation will ever convey all the sensory information needed to truly grasp what needs to be done. Well, some may be ''smarter than me'', and actually get the nuances by trial and error, between the internet and their trees they have at home, but it is a rare mind that can fully grasp all the nuances.

Once I began taking classes, my trees improved dramatically. Because I had ''deep theoretical knowledge'' behind me from all the reading and figuring out how to keep the SAME TREE healthy for over 2 decades my bonsai skills improved greatly, very quickly. But there are many things that until I actually had someone walk me through it on my own tree, I did not get it until will a teacher. Ted Matson and Peter Tea were hands down my favorite teachers. Jim Doyle, Colin Lewis were also great, but not available as frequently as the first two. I love Colin Lewis's writing style, his books are some of the best bonsai how to books out there. But in person provided me the keys I needed to really get a handle on bonsai.

Sure, the internet is important, and very, very valuable, but at least in my case, and by extension of my assumption that more people are like me than not in their ability to learn, a live, in person teacher in a setting that is close to one on one is critical to drive home the understanding of bonsai.

The deeper the knowledge you have before sitting down with a teacher, the more efficiently you can use your time with a teacher, as they are not cheap. And having a tree that you had been growing for several years, and were already familiar with its basic growth habits as the subject for the student - teacher interaction really helps. In my opinion, there is no substitute for this experience.

There is a huge ''body of knowledge'' to learn in bonsai, without the internet, I don't think one could progress very fast at all. But the internet combined with live, in person instruction I believe, in my opinion, is the best way to learn bonsai.

I only take classes in episodes. I did a 3 year, 3 times a year series with Ted Matson. Then grew on my own for 5 years or so. Then I did the same 3 year, 3 times a year with Peter Tea. Right now I am between teachers. At some point I will repeat this process. There is always something new to learn. As you get deeper into the ''art'' the more subtle the skills you try to refine.

I do not claim to be a ''good bonsai artist'', right now most of my trees look like crap, but now when I look at them I KNOW WHY, and have a plan for improving them. I did have a health crisis 9 years ago, during which I lost many of my better trees, so when you look at my collection, it is still a ''intermediate level'' collection. But I know now what I need to do. When I hit the wall again, where I'm not happy with my trees, and don't know what they need to be improved, I will definitely bring in another teacher.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Gonna have to disagree with "can't learn bonsai from the Internet". Yes, I understand but no, I disagree.

Obviously I have my own trees which I learn from but all my knowledge from what to do is based off internet, talking to people, reading, watching, etc. Internet is a huge part of learning for many people because we simply don't have the opinions. I can't travel to classes or teachers, so this is what I have. I would be very disheartened to think the only learning aid I have, is useless.


One more thought,
The original poster is in the Chicago area, where I know there are a fair number of good hobby growers, that the OP could learn a lot from for free, and these hobby growers do bring in some of the top artists where the OP could have experience with the ''best in the country'' for a fee that is cheaper than what one would have to lay down if they wanted to hire these pros for private one on one instruction. So the resources are available to the OP with less than one hour of driving time.

But I do agree, you can learn a lot from the internet.
 

ConorDash

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One more thought,
The original poster is in the Chicago area, where I know there are a fair number of good hobby growers, that the OP could learn a lot from for free, and these hobby growers do bring in some of the top artists where the OP could have experience with the ''best in the country'' for a fee that is cheaper than what one would have to lay down if they wanted to hire these pros for private one on one instruction. So the resources are available to the OP with less than one hour of driving time.

But I do agree, you can learn a lot from the internet.

I hope there was no misunderstanding. What you are pointing out is the stark contrast in the knowledge and skills learnt from 1:1 personal interaction. I'm by NO MEANS demeaning that. I know hands down that's the best.

My only point was that the internet isn't "useless", which is what you said originally. That's all :).

I've not been to a workshop, no but I'd say it's common sense that it'd be very useful and I understand having a guiding hand to see what one is doing and help. No argument about any of that.

As I said, I hope there was no misunderstanding. I'm simply disagreeing with the "useless" part, not disagreeing with how much more useful personal interaction is :)
 

sorce

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Truth is @Leo in N E Illinois it's guys like you that converted internet learning from what you had.....

To what YOU now provide!

Guys like @Vance Wood @rockm @Smoke @Brian Van Fleet

So us Newbs can actually learn everything!

Hell... @barrosinc and @MACH5 got it bout 3D too!

But...........

Once you've seen a fantastic show...
And the still beauty....

You are never the same!

Sorce
 

CasAH

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Midwest Bonsai Society's next meeting is June 5th at 7:00 pm at the Chicago Botanic Gardens.

Owen Reich is scheduled to present on Summer tree work. He will be working on a hornbeam that will be auctioned off at the end of the meeting.
 
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