Shohin Elm

Shay

Mame
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Israel
Hello,
This tree was collected earlier this year from an abandon schoolyard that was being renovated.
The first picture was when I got it. There is no scale but the trunk thickness is 1.5-2 inches.
It grew very well the past couple of months and today I had a workshop with Ofer Grunwald and showing current status...
The pot is temporary and to inhibit strong growth. it has several more years to go but looks like a good start :)
Thanks for watching!
Shay
 

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Why inhibit strong growth at this stage? This is the time when I should think you would want strong growth.
 
Why inhibit strong growth at this stage? This is the time when I should think you would want strong growth.
The main structure is there and I don't need/want thicker branches. I also want short internodes length.
I want to let it rest after this session and if it will grow too strong I will not be able to use it later...
 
That's a wild piece of Ulmus.!

Update frequently!

Definitely a Selmfie Contestant!

Sorce
 
Why inhibit strong growth at this stage? This is the time when I should think you would want strong growth.

Unless you have a seedling -- which this is not -- "strong growth" usually is NOT what you need in bonsai.

Subtly managed growth should always be your goal. Otherwise, your trees are likely to be coarse and out of proportion as they develop.
 
Isn't it too late for such a big prune?
 
I also want short internodes length.
You get those from cutting the tree back continuously and giving it maximum sunlight.
I don't believe in keeping a tree weak just in order to keep it small.
None of my elms have long internodes and they have small leaves.
I have a butt load in training pots and a couple in bonsai pots. They all have short internodes.
I water everyday and right now I fertilize twice per week. Double to triple strength with miracle grow.
Plus I can collect an elm and in 2 years it's ready for a bonsai pot. Already will have all primary,secondary and a lot of final ramification started.
I even have the trees to prove it. Check out the elm and collecting forums. I have one or two threads in there showing my work.
 
You get those from cutting the tree back continuously and giving it maximum sunlight.
I don't believe in keeping a tree weak just in order to keep it small.
None of my elms have long internodes and they have small leaves.
I have a butt load in training pots and a couple in bonsai pots. They all have short internodes.
I water everyday and right now I fertilize twice per week. Double to triple strength with miracle grow.
Plus I can collect an elm and in 2 years it's ready for a bonsai pot. Already will have all primary,secondary and a lot of final ramification started.
I even have the trees to prove it. Check out the elm and collecting forums. I have one or two threads in there showing my work.
Growth from the same year will eventually have the same thickness won't it? So in two years you get primary and secondary branches... How are you dealing with that?
I don't starv it... Just changed from liquid to osmocote.
 
Let's see if this helps. First picture is last spring right after digging or collection if you like.
Second picture is just 1 year of growth. Last fall. I let the branches grow freely all year. Since this tree is going to be an almost broom they are thick enough.
Third picture is this spring after cutting the branches back. See the big stubs? Those will be the primary branches. Meaning all or most branching will be coming from there. I think the actual term for those is sub trunks for this style of tree.
The fourth picture is the same tree with wire. I've been told my wiring looks like crap but this isn't so bad is it? It's getting the job done. Anyway. See the long little branches I wired up on the top of the stubs? I'll let those get to about half or a little larger of the diameter of the stubs they are growing out of. At that time I will cut them back to an appropriate side branch and wire it up as the next section of the primary. All of this will be done in around a month to a month and a half. They do grow that fast.
Since I'm not cutting the branch off all of the way it will be growing small branches out of dormant buds under the cut. Since those are coming off of the main branch those are called secondaries. Those also will be wired into position and cut back continuously as they grow. And as that is happening they will also sprout branches along their length. Those will be what is called tetiary branches. As they get cut cut back they branch out and those get cut back. Ramification is all of those little tetiary branches and the little twigs that grow out of them.
Most of this is going to happen this year except for some tetiary branches and fine twiggery. Once it gets to developing twigs I will be able to put it into a bonsai pot. Next spring. From there it is just a matter of hedge trimming to keep shape and building even more fine twigs. Did I mention they grow fast.
Now. Once in a bonsai pot you might think I would back off on the feeding. Not so. I never get coarse growth because all of the cutting and keeping it in full sun all of the live long day doesn't let it. You get long internodes from lack of sunlight because a plant will reach for the sun and stretch out. Also the constant pinching and cutting keeps the leaves small. A little secret. You don't need to defoliating elm trees. This is an American elm. They normally have 2 inch or longer leaves. By having all of those fine branches the leaves distribute evenly. A tree only needs so much surface area of leaf to photosynthesize. If it has one branch with 10 2 inch leaves if I make it grow 2 branches it will have 20 leaves at half that size. As the twigs get smaller and there are more of them the leaves will naturally get smaller to distribute leaf surface area throughout the tree.
I do have to note that I have never had anyone teach me. You are lucky. I learned all of this stuff on my own. Trial and error. If your teacher does things differently and comes up with the same results who is wrong. Not me. Or him.
I must also say I'm awful rough and pushy with my trees. They are mine after all. But I do get results.
I hope this answers some questions for you.
I see I took a picture of it in a pot too. I tried that on for size and didn't like it. So I put it back into the collander. Needs a larger shallower pot. But I think I'll stick with blue.IMG_20140426_141853_344.jpg IMG_20140816_201257_401.jpg IMG_20140426_141853_344.jpg IMG_20140816_201257_401.jpg 2015-04-25 16.47.27.jpg 2015-05-01 14.52.54.jpg
 
M Frary,

I agree with just about all you said. I do defoliate, but that's a refinement technique, not a growing out technique.

Now, about that wiring...

I'm not going to comment on the actual wiring, but what you're doing with the wire.

Am I correct you're going with a broom style here?

If so, broom style is a form of Formal Upright. Your trunk is straight, the primary branches are predominantly straight, but then, you've put all kinds of wiggles and curves in the small branches. It's not consistent. They should be straight as well. Use the wire to direct their growth in the right direction, not make them curvy.

Which brings me to:

The Primary Branches. They should make a "V" shaped tree. Yours start off that way, but it appears you let them grow so long, they curved upwards to vertical. They should still be going "out", not "up". And they're too long without taper. Cut them back by at least half. To cut out where they curve up.

When you wire, let the branches grow straight, just set the angle they come off the branch right. Small amounts of movement is ok, not the exaggerated curves you've put in.
 
Let's see if this helps. First picture is last spring right after digging or collection if you like.
Second picture is just 1 year of growth. Last fall. I let the branches grow freely all year. Since this tree is going to be an almost broom they are thick enough.
Third picture is this spring after cutting the branches back. See the big stubs? Those will be the primary branches. Meaning all or most branching will be coming from there. I think the actual term for those is sub trunks for this style of tree.
The fourth picture is the same tree with wire. I've been told my wiring looks like crap but this isn't so bad is it? It's getting the job done. Anyway. See the long little branches I wired up on the top of the stubs? I'll let those get to about half or a little larger of the diameter of the stubs they are growing out of. At that time I will cut them back to an appropriate side branch and wire it up as the next section of the primary. All of this will be done in around a month to a month and a half. They do grow that fast.
Since I'm not cutting the branch off all of the way it will be growing small branches out of dormant buds under the cut. Since those are coming off of the main branch those are called secondaries. Those also will be wired into position and cut back continuously as they grow. And as that is happening they will also sprout branches along their length. Those will be what is called tetiary branches. As they get cut cut back they branch out and those get cut back. Ramification is all of those little tetiary branches and the little twigs that grow out of them.
Most of this is going to happen this year except for some tetiary branches and fine twiggery. Once it gets to developing twigs I will be able to put it into a bonsai pot. Next spring. From there it is just a matter of hedge trimming to keep shape and building even more fine twigs. Did I mention they grow fast.
Now. Once in a bonsai pot you might think I would back off on the feeding. Not so. I never get coarse growth because all of the cutting and keeping it in full sun all of the live long day doesn't let it. You get long internodes from lack of sunlight because a plant will reach for the sun and stretch out. Also the constant pinching and cutting keeps the leaves small. A little secret. You don't need to defoliating elm trees. This is an American elm. They normally have 2 inch or longer leaves. By having all of those fine branches the leaves distribute evenly. A tree only needs so much surface area of leaf to photosynthesize. If it has one branch with 10 2 inch leaves if I make it grow 2 branches it will have 20 leaves at half that size. As the twigs get smaller and there are more of them the leaves will naturally get smaller to distribute leaf surface area throughout the tree.
I do have to note that I have never had anyone teach me. You are lucky. I learned all of this stuff on my own. Trial and error. If your teacher does things differently and comes up with the same results who is wrong. Not me. Or him.
I must also say I'm awful rough and pushy with my trees. They are mine after all. But I do get results.
I hope this answers some questions for you.
I see I took a picture of it in a pot too. I tried that on for size and didn't like it. So I put it back into the collander. Needs a larger shallower pot. But I think I'll stick with blue.View attachment 75645 View attachment 75646 View attachment 75645 View attachment 75646 View attachment 75649 View attachment 75650
Thank you for your input. Its different to do things on your own and having a teacher. I, for now, rather do things "by the book" and experiment later down the road.
I want to do things right with this tree in particular to maximize its potential.
 
M Frary,

I agree with just about all you said. I do defoliate, but that's a refinement technique, not a growing out technique.

Now, about that wiring...

I'm not going to comment on the actual wiring, but what you're doing with the wire.

Am I correct you're going with a broom style here?

If so, broom style is a form of Formal Upright. Your trunk is straight, the primary branches are predominantly straight, but then, you've put all kinds of wiggles and curves in the small branches. It's not consistent. They should be straight as well. Use the wire to direct their growth in the right direction, not make them curvy.

Which brings me to:

The Primary Branches. They should make a "V" shaped tree. Yours start off that way, but it appears you let them grow so long, they curved upwards to vertical. They should still be going "out", not "up". And they're too long without taper. Cut them back by at least half. To cut out where they curve up.

When you wire, let the branches grow straight, just set the angle they come off the branch right. Small amounts of movement is ok, not the exaggerated curves you've put in.

You don't like it? Wait till I build a flat top out of it. I said broom like,not broom.
I know what's going on with the branches. I grew 'em. I see 'em. I planned 'em. I wired them upright more than the way they were growing.
I'm also toying with the idea of ripping it from the bottom to the top cut to make it look like a lightning bolt blew it's guts out.
Oh no this tree is going just as planned.
Thanks for the advice though.
 
Ok, M Frary! It will be interesting to see what you come up with.
 
I'm shooting for something along these lines Adair. I forgot to attach it in my reply.
This tree is a beech I believe. One of Walter Pall's trees.IMG_20140323_222606.jpg
 
Playing with design...
 

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Update.
This is how it looks like today.
Had a trimming session a couple of weeks ago and its going on strong.
I'll update with a winter picture to give a better look of the structure.
Regards,
Shay
 

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