Shimpaku junipers are not sargentii

[Cable]

We haven't had a good argument here in a few days so I thought I'd start one!

Being in the nursery industry I'm interested in a lot of horticulture and ever since I started in bonsai I've wondered about shimpaku junipers and why the nursery I work for doesn't grow them. Off and on I've read various things and even had it in my notes that shimpakus are variants of sargentii. I also saw Ryan Neal's video where he explained that the name is really shinpaku and not shimpaku.

Anyone interested in taxonomy will tell you that there is often debate even amongst experts regarding how various plants, animals, etc. should be classified. In horticulture, whenever that occurs I generally defer to Michael Dirr as he is usually accepted as the definitive expert when it comes to woody plants.

Yesterday I was flipping through his Manual of Woody Landscape Plants because I wanted to see what he had to say on the subject. According to his classification, juniper chinensis shimpaku stands on its own and is not categorized with the sargentii junipers.

That does not contradict something else I read on these forums that claimed shimpakus were a cross between a sargentii and another juniper (I forget which one) and were subsequently classified as x media.

Right now I am planting my flag on the "not a sargentii" hill. Several other people I respect have written that they are, in fact, sargent junipers so make your case!

 

[herzausstahl]

I could be wrong but if you search the archives @Brian Van Fleet has an excellent article on the history of Shimpaku

 

[Alain BERTRAND]

Your claim contradicts what is written on the J. chinensis Wikipedia page.

イブキ - Wikipedia

ja.wikipedia.org

• var. sargentii ミヤマビャクシン（深山柏槇、シンパク（槇柏、真柏））

BTW, I agree with Ryan Neal that it is better to write shinpaku rather than shimpaku.

 

[justBonsai]

There's no standalone m sound in Japanese. Shinpaku is the correct spelling. It's just what happens when people try to phonetically spell words from another language. There is an official phonetic spelling of Japanese syllables which is called romanji. Either way I don't think it really matters. People will know what you're talking about. Who cares about n vs m.

However if you were to try to type shimpaku from a romanji to Japanese keyboard you will not find the word.

 

[leatherback]

Just continue one of the previous threads?

Juniperus chinensis sargentii

The Southern States nursery down the street from my house has some plants labeled as juniperus chinensis sargentii in the discount pile for $14.99 a pop. They have decent trunks on them-probably 1.5". I brought one home but now I'm thinking I should go back and clean them out. Google says...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[VAFisher]

Just continue one of the previous threads?

Juniperus chinensis sargentii

The Southern States nursery down the street from my house has some plants labeled as juniperus chinensis sargentii in the discount pile for $14.99 a pop. They have decent trunks on them-probably 1.5". I brought one home but now I'm thinking I should go back and clean them out. Google says...

www.bonsainut.com

I remember that tree. I killed it dead.

 

[Cable]

I could be wrong but if you search the archives @Brian Van Fleet has an excellent article on the history of Shimpaku

I know. I’m saying i don’t think it is entirely accurate.

 

[Cable]

Just continue one of the previous threads?

Juniperus chinensis sargentii

The Southern States nursery down the street from my house has some plants labeled as juniperus chinensis sargentii in the discount pile for $14.99 a pop. They have decent trunks on them-probably 1.5". I brought one home but now I'm thinking I should go back and clean them out. Google says...

www.bonsainut.com

That thread is about sargentii, I’m talking about shimpaku.

 

[choppychoppy]

Who cares? What's the point? I call it chickenpaku

 

[Cable]

lol, not many people apparently! I just think taxonomy is interesting, particularly since they change things all the time!

 

[AlainK]

We haven't had a good argument here in a few days so I thought I'd start one!

Two for the price of one :

Do you mean "Taxonomy" or "Taxinomy" ?...

There doesn't seem to be a debate about that in English-speaking countries, everyone uses "taxonomy", from the French "taxonomie", a word coined in 1813 by Augustin Pyrame de Candolle.

But "taxinomie" was recommended in 1864.

Anyway most people continue to use "taxonomie", whereas the word "taxon" was only created in 1948 by Herman Johannes Lam



Excerpt from the "google translation" of the French page of Wikipedia, for those who like spending time on details :

Taxinomy was recommended in 1864. Émile Littré, in his Dictionary of the French Language (version 1872-1877) specified that the word taxinomy or taxionomy could also be used, formed on the Greek etymon taxis (order). The Grand dictionnaire terminologique, in Quebec, confirms that taxinomy is recommended by several authors considering "taxonomy" as "a tracing of the English taxonomy", which is however historically false. Indeed, taxonomy appears in English only in 1819 under the influence of French, six years after it was invented by De Candolle. French dictionaries, however, continue to spread this error that the graphical taxonomy (De Candolle, 1813) corresponds to the English taxonomy. On the contrary, most English dictionaries correctly claim that the word taxonomy derives from French, and for TLFI, the English taxonomy only appeared in 1828 in the American Webster's13 dictionary.

The term taxonomy does not derive from the word taxon, the latter being a concept appeared later (word created by the botanist Herman Johannes Lam in 1948). Thus, taxonomy is not, etymologically, the study of taxa but the laws on order, and therefore the rules of classification. Some specialists make a difference in the use, especially in botany, between the taxinomy which, formed on the Greek etymon nómos (law, rule), concerns the questions of classification, and the taxonomy which, formed on the Greek etymon ónoma (noun), refers to nomenclature issues. Other scholars use the term taxionomy in their activity, particularly in zoology, to name groups of living beings. However, the word taxonomy is also and very often used to name the science of describing taxa. Even authors advocating the use of the term "taxinomy" do not speak of "taxins" but of taxa, with the exception, however, of a specialist in entomology invoking the French diffusion of knowledge and deploring the influence of English. Other languages use terms similar to "taxonomy", not "taxinomy"; Thus, one writes taxonomy in German, taxonomy in English, taxonomía in Spanish (Castilian), taxonomia in Portuguese and Catalan, tassonomia in Italian, taconomy (taksonomiya) in Russian, etc.

PS: I tried to correct all the occurences of "taxonomy" where in French it was "taxinomie" (taxinomy). The debate in itself is already hard to understand, but when the two words are translated the same in another language, it's totally surrealistic !

We haven't had a good argument here in a few days so I thought I'd start one!

Someone recently mentioned Iris Cohen : it would have been great to hear from her, she was such a "well of knowledge" on dendrology, nomenclature, classification, and always ready for a friendly argument on how to name things the right way...

 

[penumbra]

yawn

 

[AZbonsai]

We haven't had a good argument here in a few days so I thought I'd start one!

Let me help you out:

SOIL WAR!

Prepare for incoming.

 

[AlainK]

SOIL WAR!

Wow!

SOIL WAR ?

Do you think that Russia will take back Alaska like what they did in Ukraine when they annexed Crimea?...

 

[leatherback]

Do you think that Russia will take back Alaska like what they did in Ukraine when they annexed Crimea?...

I don't know. Do they make kitty litter in Alaska?

 

[thumblessprimate1]

There's no standalone m sound in Japanese. Shinpaku is the correct spelling. It's just what happens when people try to phonetically spell words from another language. There is an official phonetic spelling of Japanese syllables which is called romanji. Either way I don't think it really matters. People will know what you're talking about. Who cares about n vs m.

However if you were to try to type shimpaku from a romanji to Japanese keyboard you will not find the word.

Yes!

 

[VAFisher]

Let me help you out:

SOIL WAR!

Prepare for incoming.

My soil is the best! I'll give you the recipe for a small price. I've changed it since I killed the above tree dead. That soil was not the best.

 

[bwaynef]

Do you think that Russia will take back Alaska like what they did in Ukraine when they annexed Crimea?...

I sent packages to the same address (Gagarin street in Simferopol) months apart, ...and I had to find a new country code the 2nd time.

Crimea is Ukraine.

 

[Cable]

BTW, I agree with Ryan Neal that it is better to write shinpaku rather than shimpaku.

There's no standalone m sound in Japanese. Shinpaku is the correct spelling. It's just what happens when people try to phonetically spell words from another language. There is an official phonetic spelling of Japanese syllables which is called romanji. Either way I don't think it really matters. People will know what you're talking about. Who cares about n vs m.

However if you were to try to type shimpaku from a romanji to Japanese keyboard you will not find the word.

Technology is fun.

I've never quite bought Ryan's assertion that "shinpaku" is correct when the majority of the world uses "shimpaku".

Recently, I ased ChatGPT to weigh in on the issue...

"Shimpaku" (真柏) is a Japanese word that refers to a specific species of juniper tree (Juniperus chinensis var. sargentii) that is commonly used in bonsai cultivation. The word "shimpaku" is made up of two kanji characters: "shin" (真), which can be translated as "true" or "genuine," and "baku" (柏), which means "cypress" or "cedar."

So while "shinpaku" refers to the beating of the heart, "shimpaku" refers to a type of tree used in bonsai cultivation. The two words are not directly related, but they do share the kanji character "shin," which means "true" or "genuine."

I asked why two different words.

The difference in spelling between "shinpaku" and "shimpaku" is due to the way that Japanese words are transliterated into the Roman alphabet. In Japanese, there are two syllabary systems (hiragana and katakana) as well as a set of Chinese characters called kanji.

In the case of "shinpaku," the first syllable is pronounced with an "n" sound (the "n" is a nasal sound that is pronounced by closing the mouth and forcing air through the nose), which is represented in Romanization by the letter "n". In contrast, "shimpaku" begins with the syllable "shi" (which is pronounced with a "sh" sound), followed by the syllable "m" (which is pronounced with the lips together, similar to the "m" sound in English), and then the syllable "pa" (which is pronounced with a "p" sound). In this case, the "m" sound is transliterated by the letter "m" in Romanization.

So, the difference in spelling between "shinpaku" and "shimpaku" reflects the different sounds that are used in the Japanese language.

 

[justBonsai]

Technology is fun.

I've never quite bought Ryan's assertion that "shinpaku" is correct when the majority of the world uses "shimpaku".

Recently, I ased ChatGPT to weigh in on the issue...




I asked why two different words.

A few things wrong here. First of all the romanization of Japanese phonetic components is romanji--english spelling of hiragana (katakana is same but used for "borrowed" words). There is no "m" spelling. Its just for the english speaking demographic shimpaku is easier to pronounce then shinpaku thus the shimpaku spelling was adopted as a popularized western spelling.

Second both are shinpaku, the 2 referenced Japanese words. Actually shinpaku (in reference to the tree) is really a bonsai word. If you went to a random person in Japan and if they were not well acquainted with bonsai and you started talking about shinpaku they probably would not know what you are talking about. Say in absence of spoken context if the words were written, they would be distinguished by their respective kanji:
心拍 "heartbeat"
真柏 "juniper chinesis"

Both are still shinpaku.

ChatGPT is amazing and fun to use, but is not 100% accurate and is probably not the best resource for interpretation of Japanese through English. It is an AI indexing and interpreting english based information on the internet and subsequently subject to the same bias of the source material. Thus chatGPT is may not be advanced enough to discern a popularized, but incorrect nomenclature(which it may deem by function of its algorithm to be true). Anyways I think chatGPT will constantly improve more and more and its already super impressive. But we should not forget to apply ourselves and not to overly take given information for granted.

Also if you phrase the question to chatGPT what is the difference between shinpaku or shimpaku it will most likely assume that there is an inferred difference between the 2 (as opposed to assuming that you would not ask if there is a difference between 2 identical things). Thus the answer will define shimpaku in its most referenced form (juniper chinesis) and define shinpaku in the alternate definition with no consideration towards phonetic to written interpretation.