Sequoia Cascade (the beginning)

[dr.tenebris]

Realized i didn't make a thread for this still getting use to the form

Yesterday I trimmed my 1-2 year old Sequoia and took the plunge of wiring and shaping it as I had been reluctant to do so without greater growth on it but after some work with yamadori I realized if I wanted a clean refined tree In the future i needed to just do it!

Decided to do a cascade style and although the tree is still rather small I look forward to trimming it and developing pads and length even if that may be years down the line,

I do think I'll go invest in some clay and make my own pot for it's final pot, I've never seen a hanging pot in bonsai but I think it'll fit if I can make a nice pot for it.

Photos included on my first steps on shaping,

I have been trying to propagate all of my trimmings so far (there's no way that keeps happening) but hopefully the artificial rooting hormone will be the right level and they take root

 

[dr.tenebris]

Oh forgot to mention the soil! Im currently using a heavy peat moss soil and misting it regularly with an occasional hard water as these trees like wet tops but not too much on the feet, tryin to balance that while still encouraging heavy root growth since I'm aware the Sequoias roots are rather fragile I want to have plenty of roots before the first repot (and root reduction)

 

[Icarus]

I have x2 that are two years old. I am letting them grow for now. Surely it would be easier to plant a few seeds instead of propagation by cutting. Also how does excess water drain out of your glass pots? In my opinion the roots are likely to rot?

 

[dr.tenebris]

I have x2 that are two years old. I am letting them grow for now. Surely it would be easier to plant a few seeds instead of propagation by cutting. Also how does excess water drain out of your glass pots? In my opinion the roots are likely to rot?

That was a concern, I used a large drainage layer so I could carefully water, also I haven't used direct water pouring, rather a regular misting routine, glass pot is temporary so I can watch root growth, anticipating a repot either in the fall or next year.

As for seed vs cutting propagation your probably correct about the ease of seedlings, however I'm considering using mutation breeding on the clones, the mutations should be easier to spot, not sure yet must still consider

Though your success with seeds is inspiring and I ultimately should use seeds for genetic diversity (and mutation Breeding is typically done with seeds) I'm currently being as thrifty as I can be and the cuttings are saving me some money..
Need that to buy clay for my pots and I do have other bricks in the fire if you catch my drift,

Essentially I'm greedy and want to make use of as many things as I can without going over my budgets lol

 

[dr.tenebris]

I have x2 that are two years old. I am letting them grow for now. Surely it would be easier to plant a few seeds instead of propagation by cutting. Also how does excess water drain out of your glass pots? In my opinion the roots are likely to rot?

I did just look it up and I used the wrong hormex rooting powder!! If you plan on making cuttings for yourself use hormex no.3 not 8

 

[dr.tenebris]

Update, the Sequoia is looking very healthy.
Although the tips are bending upwards towards the light, may require single adjustment in the final pot, might put it on a stone as well given i have yet to do a root reduction trying to allow maximum growth for the moment.

I did try to increase the movement a little more a while back, looks good me thinks, I do have a branch making it's own way into the soil so it may decide to throw some roots down that way, might be interesting

I'm considering leaving the wire on the tree and letting it twist itself around it... According to herons bonsai (yt) who seems very knowledgeable, "conifers take well to this technique (referring to letting the wire get swallowed up) but not deciduous it would seem" advice here would be appreciated as the Sequoia is still my first bonsai!

Thoughts critiques and insights are all appreciated and welcomed!

 

[dr.tenebris]

Emergency repot!

My Sequoia hasn't been doing well, I've noticed several signs of death approaching that are common with Sequoias suffering from extreme dryness.. I knew that didn't make much sense given my original potting solution should've had too much water... Out of fear of loosing my very first bonsai I...

www.bonsainut.com

Update, had to repot... Tree was not doing well.

 

[Dabbler]

I would suggest doing some more reading and understanding on bonsai - I'm not trying to sound harsh, and you can tell me to shove off if you want but your over messing with things and planting things in the wrong pots and media. Bonsai is generally an outdoor game and one of patience and knowledge, as well as hard work. don't get me wrong we all need to start somewhere but your loving your plants to death and giving them the wrong conditions to grow. I just do bonsai as a way to relax and enjoy nature and not really a professional manner, so take it as you will, but after 20 years - I've made a ton of mistakes and that's generally how we learn! so keep it up and grow that knowledge.

 

[Colorado]

Emergency repot!

My Sequoia hasn't been doing well, I've noticed several signs of death approaching that are common with Sequoias suffering from extreme dryness.. I knew that didn't make much sense given my original potting solution should've had too much water... Out of fear of loosing my very first bonsai I...

www.bonsainut.com

Update, had to repot... Tree was not doing well.

I don’t mean to be too hard on ya, Doc, but there is no way to grow successfully grow a tree in a glass cup with no drainage hole, in the long term. It’s just a matter of time before the roots rot. The “drainage layer” at the bottom is not sufficient.

Proper watering is arguably the most important part of bonsai. I think you have some studying to do in this area

But I love your enthusiasm for bonsai! Enjoy the journey of discovery and learning

 

[rockm]

Oh forgot to mention the soil! Im currently using a heavy peat moss soil and misting it regularly with an occasional hard water as these trees like wet tops but not too much on the feet, tryin to balance that while still encouraging heavy root growth since I'm aware the Sequoias roots are rather fragile I want to have plenty of roots before the first repot (and root reduction)

Think this through...You have planted the tree in a container that apparently has no drainage holes, are using a heavy peat moss soil and misting the tiny tree. All that adds up to is a soggy mess of a root mass (misting drips into the soil. Peat moss holds onto water like a sponge. No drainage hole means the water has no where to go and the roots aren't sufficient to take up all that excess moisture. It's unclear if this tree is outside or inside (if it's inside, watering properly becomes even more critical).

Also you've wired it and forced it into a sideways direction. Sequoia is an extremely apically dominant species that does nothing but want to grow upwards strongly. Imposing such a drastic redirection of the tree is counterproductive to getting it to grow strongly and develop a trunk and a root system. And FWIW, cascades are generally created not by initially wiring them downwards, but allowing the top to grow, then using lower growth as the cascade, removing the top somewhere along the advanced development path. In other words, they're created by cutting a tree back drastically AFTER the primary nebari and lower branching are set.

Sequoia is not an easy species. It's even more difficult when you work at cross purposes to it's growth habits. While it may be possible to move down the development path you've chosen, it will be doubly difficult for you and the tree.

 

[dr.tenebris]

I would suggest doing some more reading and understanding on bonsai - I'm not trying to sound harsh, and you can tell me to shove off if you want but your over messing with things and planting things in the wrong pots and media. Bonsai is generally an outdoor game and one of patience and knowledge, as well as hard work. don't get me wrong we all need to start somewhere but your loving your plants to death and giving them the wrong conditions to grow. I just do bonsai as a way to relax and enjoy nature and not really a professional manner, so take it as you will, but after 20 years - I've made a ton of mistakes and that's generally how we learn! so keep it up and grow that knowledge.

I do understand what your saying

I know the pot wasn't a great choice but I was in a tough spot, winters here where far too harsh for the Sequoia to be planted mid winter and it was the first tree I purchased... On budget as well, id been studying the concepts for awhile and wanted to give it a shot without access to the more costly things..

The glass pot was just to last me to spring and hopefully develop more roots as the original roots where a very thin.

I certainly rushed in causing many mistakes, but id rather make those mistakes now and learn while I still have plenty of time to make mistakes..

I am at the end of the day young and will rush things that take time and I understand my mistakes up to this point...

Think this through...You have planted the tree in a container that apparently has no drainage holes, are using a heavy peat moss soil and misting the tiny tree. All that adds up to is a soggy mess of a root mass (misting drips into the soil. Peat moss holds onto water like a sponge. No drainage hole means the water has no where to go and the roots aren't sufficient to take up all that excess moisture. It's unclear if this tree is outside or inside (if it's inside, watering properly becomes even more critical).

Also you've wired it and forced it into a sideways direction. Sequoia is an extremely apically dominant species that does nothing but want to grow upwards strongly. Imposing such a drastic redirection of the tree is counterproductive to getting it to grow strongly and develop a trunk and a root system. And FWIW, cascades are generally created not by initially wiring them downwards, but allowing the top to grow, then using lower growth as the cascade, removing the top somewhere along the advanced development path. In other words, they're created by cutting a tree back drastically AFTER the primary nebari and lower branching are set.

Sequoia is not an easy species. It's even more difficult when you work at cross purposes to it's growth habits. While it may be possible to move down the development path you've chosen, it will be doubly difficult for you and the tree.

I did adjust my mistakes coming to realize just how foolish I had been up to this point, setting the plant in an upward position in its new larger pot.

I didn't necessarily have the resources immediately I should have started with such as proper bonsai soils or concave pruning shears (yet) these mistakes also set me back...

I strive to learn as much as I can through this tree and although it'll be a bumpy road I'll be better down the road.

I ultimately appreciate everyone's time and assistance, and I should have reached out much sooner in the grand scheme of things for help!

I'm always eager to learn and need to be better overall, so please don't give up just yet... I do have some easier cutting/materials I'm working on so hopefully these lessons will translate well into my future projects. I'm seriously so very grateful to have the critiques hopefully I can be wise and learn

 

[littletreefarmer]

I didn't necessarily have the resources immediately I should have started with such as proper bonsai soils or concave pruning shears (yet) these mistakes also set me back...

This doesn't have to be expensive. Most of my trees in development are in 80% perlite (inexpensive) and 20% coco coir (very inexpensive). The research is key. Keep at it!

 

[dr.tenebris]

This doesn't have to be expensive. Most of my trees in development are in 80% perlite (inexpensive) and 20% coco coir (very inexpensive). The research is key. Keep at it!

I have a similar mix currently for its new pot, using peat moss and perlite, I did give it a layer of garden soil on top just to help with soil dispersion, something I noticed with the moss as a soil it likes to shrink in on itself leaving small pockets/ cracks everywhere.. so a small layer of garden soil on top so it can wash into these small areas without getting stuck in the roots

I did notice during the repot the original owner/company grew it in a garden soil mix... So hopefully it'll be fine with that fix.

But I do have a good mix for its new foundation

 

[rockm]

I do understand what your saying

I know the pot wasn't a great choice but I was in a tough spot, winters here where far too harsh for the Sequoia to be planted mid winter and it was the first tree I purchased... On budget as well, id been studying the concepts for awhile and wanted to give it a shot without access to the more costly things..

The glass pot was just to last me to spring and hopefully develop more roots as the original roots where a very thin.

I certainly rushed in causing many mistakes, but id rather make those mistakes now and learn while I still have plenty of time to make mistakes..

I am at the end of the day young and will rush things that take time and I understand my mistakes up to this point...

I did adjust my mistakes coming to realize just how foolish I had been up to this point, setting the plant in an upward position in its new larger pot.

I didn't necessarily have the resources immediately I should have started with such as proper bonsai soils or concave pruning shears (yet) these mistakes also set me back...

I strive to learn as much as I can through this tree and although it'll be a bumpy road I'll be better down the road.

I ultimately appreciate everyone's time and assistance, and I should have reached out much sooner in the grand scheme of things for help!

I'm always eager to learn and need to be better overall, so please don't give up just yet... I do have some easier cutting/materials I'm working on so hopefully these lessons will translate well into my future projects. I'm seriously so very grateful to have the critiques hopefully I can be wise and learn

A few things to keep in mind (And some are kind of stark)

Winters are too harsh for sequoia in your area, which means you're going to be overwintering this tree inside your house for its lifetime. That will likely kill it. Far too dry and no light (even with substantial supplemental lighting) for this humidity and light-loving species. You're learning this the hard way. Sequoia is not a tree for those just starting out. It's also an expensive tree to learn on given you're going to have to replace it once it kicks off. Part of learning is understanding the lesson being taught. Appropriate species for your situation and capabilities is one of those lessons. The importance of soil and the meaning of 'budget" are others.

Soil is the engine that drives everything in bonsai. Skimping on it thinking "it's too expensive" and using crap like peat moss instead is penny wise and pound foolish. Bad soil kills and/or compromises the ability to grow. Decent bonsai soil doesn't or at least doesn't do it as quickly if properly tended. If you have mostly trees of this size, investing a gallon of bonsai soil is money well spent. And also, peat moss dries out and becomes impervious to water unless agitated. In a bonsai pot putting it on topsoil can be like putting cement over a garden if you mis-water a few times. Also "washing" finer grained particles of organic topsoil down into a porous inorganic mix DEFEATS THE PURPOSE of having a porous mix...

Investing or acquiring a species better suited for your climate/living arrangement is also more cost-effective since you won't have to replace things that die as often. You don't need specialized tools at this point. Simple scissors will work fine for stuff like this. If you already have pruning shears for landscape trees or similar gardening tools, those will work for more substantial bonsai material. Concave cutters can be acquired years from now, as can other bonsai specialty tools.

 

[19Mateo83]

I have a ficus or two I can send you if you want some free material to play with that will do good indoors.

 

[dr.tenebris]

I have a ficus or two I can send you if you want some free material to play with that will do good indoors.

A few things to keep in mind (And some are kind of stark)

Winters are too harsh for sequoia in your area, which means you're going to be overwintering this tree inside your house for its lifetime. That will likely kill it. Far too dry and no light (even with substantial supplemental lighting) for this humidity and light-loving species. You're learning this the hard way. Sequoia is not a tree for those just starting out. It's also an expensive tree to learn on given you're going to have to replace it once it kicks off. Part of learning is understanding the lesson being taught. Appropriate species for your situation and capabilities is one of those lessons. The importance of soil and the meaning of 'budget" are others.

Soil is the engine that drives everything in bonsai. Skimping on it thinking "it's too expensive" and using crap like peat moss instead is penny wise and pound foolish. Bad soil kills and/or compromises the ability to grow. Decent bonsai soil doesn't or at least doesn't do it as quickly if properly tended. If you have mostly trees of this size, investing a gallon of bonsai soil is money well spent. And also, peat moss dries out and becomes impervious to water unless agitated. In a bonsai pot putting it on topsoil can be like putting cement over a garden if you mis-water a few times. Also "washing" finer grained particles of organic topsoil down into a porous inorganic mix DEFEATS THE PURPOSE of having a porous mix...

Investing or acquiring a species better suited for your climate/living arrangement is also more cost-effective since you won't have to replace things that die as often. You don't need specialized tools at this point. Simple scissors will work fine for stuff like this. If you already have pruning shears for landscape trees or similar gardening tools, those will work for more substantial bonsai material. Concave cutters can be acquired years from now, as can other bonsai specialty tools.

The tree should be fine outside once it has time to develop, i was just excited about starting and purchased the tree in the dead of winter mid December, i couldn't immediately bareroot it into the already frozen soil, once spring sets in fully I should be able to put it in the ground for 2/3 years and it should survive..

I also don't intend on purchasing another Sequoia until a little bit later on my journey if this fails, I already collected tons of free cherry cuttings that I'm currently rooting, they should be easier for me to work with and they come from the local area so they should do well here.

The only reason I've had to budget up to this point is people owning me money for work frustrating but until I get a paycheck I can't afford to purchase the materials I require.

Didn't realize the layering of soils was pointless, it seemed to hold up well in an experimental capacity with a sumac I collected and had a positive effect compared to having it mixed in so I started to do that more often..

I'll have to keep all of this in mind for my future projects and repots!

Thank you both!!

 

[rockm]

The tree should be fine outside once it has time to develop, i was just excited about starting and purchased the tree in the dead of winter mid December, i couldn't immediately bareroot it into the already frozen soil, once spring sets in fully I should be able to put it in the ground for 2/3 years and it should survive..

I also don't intend on purchasing another Sequoia until a little bit later on my journey if this fails, I already collected tons of free cherry cuttings that I'm currently rooting, they should be easier for me to work with and they come from the local area so they should do well here.

The only reason I've had to budget up to this point is people owning me money for work frustrating but until I get a paycheck I can't afford to purchase the materials I require.

Didn't realize the layering of soils was pointless, it seemed to hold up well in an experimental capacity with a sumac I collected and had a positive effect compared to having it mixed in so I started to do that more often..

I'll have to keep all of this in mind for my future projects and repots!

Thank you both!!

It's not only that soil layering in a bonsai pot is bad, it's also the KIND of soil you're layering.

Bonsai soil should be consistent all the way through to the bottom. The reason is water will drain at different rates through differing soil layers. That can inhibit roots, or kill them Look up "perched water table" It works like that in layered bonsai soil. Roots can be extremely reluctant to cross from one soil type into another, along with the drainage problem

Peat moss is a long-discarded ingredient for decent bonsai soil. It's too fine, can become hydrophobic when it dries. Piling it on top of other soils means those fine particulates drift down and clog the more open angular soil -- those open angular ingredients--pumic, calcined clay and the like are what drives healthy bonsai. Skip the peat moss and house plant potting soil as well (it's made to hold onto moisture to help neglectful houseplant owners who forget to water)

 

[dr.tenebris]

It's not only that soil layering in a bonsai pot is bad, it's also the KIND of soil you're layering.

Bonsai soil should be consistent all the way through to the bottom. The reason is water will drain at different rates through differing soil layers. That can inhibit roots, or kill them Look up "perched water table" It works like that in layered bonsai soil. Roots can be extremely reluctant to cross from one soil type into another, along with the drainage problem

Peat moss is a long-discarded ingredient for decent bonsai soil. It's too fine, can become hydrophobic when it dries. Piling it on top of other soils means those fine particulates drift down and clog the more open angular soil -- those open angular ingredients--pumic, calcined clay and the like are what drives healthy bonsai. Skip the peat moss and house plant potting soil as well (it's made to hold onto moisture to help neglectful houseplant owners who forget to water)

Assuming I cannot afford any new soil components what would you recommend for scavenging?

(I'm currently broke waiting for people to pay me they owe me 3 full paychecks so I'm really hurting right now)

I figure I can probably collect some of the granite gravel that's all over the mountain to replace the pumice... But that's the only possible soil component I can think of at this moment

 

[rockm]

Assuming I cannot afford any new soil components what would you recommend for scavenging?

(I'm currently broke waiting for people to pay me they owe me 3 full paychecks so I'm really hurting right now)

I figure I can probably collect some of the granite gravel that's all over the mountain to replace the pumice... But that's the only possible soil component I can think of at this moment

I have no idea what you can replace it with, since I'm not in Utah. Soil components depend greatly on local sources and possible ingredients. I'd say calling the Utah Bonsai Club to ask what to use and what might be of use locally. They have a Facebook page and contact info. Even though they're in Salt Lake they're still closer than I am and probably have a vastly better idea of soil ingredient possibilities in your area.

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