Selecting JBP stock material

[zeejet]

I’m interested in getting a JBP to develop but I have no experience with the species. One thing I noticed immediately is that young JBP stock looks nothing like a mature JBP and I often find myself completely lost and unsure as to what I should be looking for when selecting pre-bonsai or nursery stock.

I’m wondering if there are any tips for selecting pre-bonsai or nursery stock material. Is it largely looking for the same things (nebari, movement, trunk thickness, etc.)? Or are there JBP-specific considerations? I’m also under the impression that trunks can be bent quite readily and that lack of movement in a trunk < ¾” is still possible.

 

[Paradox]

I’m interested in getting a JBP to develop but I have no experience with the species. One thing I noticed immediately is that young JBP stock looks nothing like a mature JBP and I often find myself completely lost and unsure as to what I should be looking for when selecting pre-bonsai or nursery stock.

I’m wondering if there are any tips for selecting pre-bonsai or nursery stock material. Is it largely looking for the same things (nebari, movement, trunk thickness, etc.)? Or are there JBP-specific considerations? I’m also under the impression that trunks can be bent quite readily and that lack of movement in a trunk < ¾” is still possible.

Kinda depends on how big the pre-stock you are looking to buy is.
If you're looking seedlings, you wont see those things yet but if its something a bit further along then yes, nebari, movement, good branching in the right locations are what you are looking for.
It will be harder to bend anything with greater than half an inch diameter imo

 

[zeejet]

Kinda depends on how big the pre-stock you are looking to buy is.
If you're looking seedlings, you wont see those things yet but if its something a bit further along then yes, nebari, movement, good branching in the right locations are what you are looking for.
It will be harder to bend anything with greater than half an inch diameter imo

I'm mainly talking about stock that's 3/4" to 1.5" in thickness, which usually hasn't developed any sort of bark or significant nebari.

I guess providing some hypothetical images might help. How would ya'll rate the following JBP pre-bonsai?


Personally, I only like number 1, but I have no idea where you can take this material. Numbers 3 and 4 look like they can potentially be good informal uprights, but can you take them in other directions?

 

[Shibui]

Is it largely looking for the same things (nebari, movement, trunk thickness, etc.)? Or are there JBP-specific considerations?

JBP does not readily bud on bare wood so trees with long. bare branches and trunks can pose problems when trying to create ramification. It can be done but needs reasonably advanced techniques. Look for trees with enough low branches to provide some structure and/or place to chop an overly long branch. Look for branches that have shorter side branches closer to the trunk so you can chop over long parts and still have healthy needles to regrow the branch.

Pines bud in 'whorls' - bunches of branches at the same level. If allowed to grow, those whorls quickly create inverse taper. Check for whorls of branches and inverse taper in both trunks and branches. It may be possible to remove affected parts and regrow from a lower branch. If it does not appear possible to chop to remove swollen parts and still have some healthy needles to regrow from then don't bother.

Trunk and branch taper is important. Probably more important than species that bud easily because we are limited to replacing thick parts with existing branches or hoping for back buds on younger, bare sections when working with pines.

JBP is quite flexible so we can bend trunks that would snap if they were most deciduous.

From the 4 pictures:
1. appears to have reasonable trunk taper - has probably already had 1 or more trunk chops. Plenty of healthy needles closer to the trunk so options to reduce length and build ramification. Some whorls of branches in the upper section?
2. older tree but very little taper in the trunk - possible literati (but do not underestimate how difficult literati can be). Longer, bare parts but still enough inner shoots to make something given a few years. Probably not beginner material.
3. much younger than the first 2. Plenty of healthy needles close to the trunk to produce new buds if required. 2 branches at second level - looks OK now but will leave a gap if/when 1 is removed to avoid inverse taper. More whorls toward the top that will need to be addressed at some stage.
4. another younger tree. Plenty of needles close to the trunk to chop to. Whorls of branches still present - check for inverse taper and possibility to chop. Little taper in the trunk - look for options to chop and regrow trunk.

Younger trees will usually give you more options for shaping and development and a chance to learn pine management before the tree gets out of control.

 

[Wulfskaar]

The cool thing I'm finding about JBP is that they are very well documented in how they react to certain things. Unlike my other pines (Italian Stone Pine, Afghan Pine, etc), there is a clear path on how to handle JBP.

Not only have all of mine survived all the torture I've given them, but they all react exactly as expected.

 

[zeejet]

From the 4 pictures:
1. appears to have reasonable trunk taper - has probably already had 1 or more trunk chops. Plenty of healthy needles closer to the trunk so options to reduce length and build ramification. Some whorls of branches in the upper section?
2. older tree but very little taper in the trunk - possible literati (but do not underestimate how difficult literati can be). Longer, bare parts but still enough inner shoots to make something given a few years. Probably not beginner material.
3. much younger than the first 2. Plenty of healthy needles close to the trunk to produce new buds if required. 2 branches at second level - looks OK now but will leave a gap if/when 1 is removed to avoid inverse taper. More whorls toward the top that will need to be addressed at some stage.
4. another younger tree. Plenty of needles close to the trunk to chop to. Whorls of branches still present - check for inverse taper and possibility to chop. Little taper in the trunk - look for options to chop and regrow trunk.

Younger trees will usually give you more options for shaping and development and a chance to learn pine management before the tree gets out of control.

Thanks for the feedback! What exactly is a whorl? This is not a term I've encountered yet - is this referring to a section with a cluster of branches?

To summarize these are some specific features I'm looking for on top of general bonsai guidelines:
- Interior needles
- Minimal or benignly placed whorls

Finally, would you say any of these are worth picking up if you saw them online or at a nursery/club sale? Or should I be pickier with my material? If they are indeed good material, how much would you pay?

 

[Jrmcmich]

Here’s a picture of a whorl of branches. You can see how multiple branches come from same point. As @Shibui mentioned normally branches would be selected to 2 at least that’s what I’ve been told. I only have couple conifers so still learning myself amd on Scott’s pine I had A whorl of 3 that I removed Center one leaving 2 which also encouraged back budding lower on trunk.

 

[Applicative]

Hey -

I would really strongly suggest not buying general nursery stock. Here is Brent from evergreen gardenworks https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/pines.htm

Listen to how difficult this is:

"Growing pre-trained material from seedlings has turned out to be even more difficult than styling and maintaining larger material. It is imperative to get that first whip to break buds, or already your first branch is a foot off the ground. Then there is also, in my opinion, the importance of getting some movement and taper to the trunk without losing all the low branches. It takes me about five years to get a good starter one gallon plant suitable for small bonsai or for growing on. This is about twice as long as deciduous material. Unlike deciduous plants, pines need to be developed from a very early age for a particular style and size. You need to have this image in your head. Of course larger nursery material can be used but the possibilities are always severely limited by the existing branches. To change this you must cut back most of the tree and grow a new top for the tree from an existing branch."

The way the branches and the movement happen, even at a young age, sets a course for what can take a long time - even see the bonsaify videos on growing black pine from seed. There are lots of really important things that need to be done, that nursery stock generally has not had:



the first image is difficult to tell whats going on - the second is pretty leggy but workable if you cut the top trunk down and make a new leader. The third is ok but again you will need to chop - and the last one as well seems like you want to cut.

This is what bonsai material looks like:




but notice this:



It has a 5 foot long sacrifice. The low branches need to bud very close to the trunk - a leader has grown and grown to thicken the trunk. This is how pine bonsai are developed. The images you linked are not close to this. What ends up happening with bad stock, is a lot of times they can be difficult to work with.

 

[Wulfskaar]

My oldest JBP are 4 year old seedlings. I have not found it that difficult to get lower budding and strengthening of lower branches. I've simply been cutting the candles above the candle base to get branching there, or below the candle base to get lower growth. This does add time it will take to get a fatter trunk, but at least the lower branches will be there.

Another thing one can do is to wire movement into the trunk early on and/or repot at an angle a bit. This can bring the rest of the tree and branches lower to the soil than if just left to grow vertically.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

One needs to decide first what size tree to start with, small, medium or large.

If it’s small there are a number of resources out there to help carry out the design. One of the best ones is Bonsaify.com course. Mastering Shohin Black Pine. The course will take one year by year with examples of every technique and step along the way in creating a Shohin black pine. I have purchased this course and reviewed it on my own. It is hands down excellent.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[River's Edge]

If you are looking for material to learn on with potential as opposed to material that requires correction I would start with something similar to the fourth one pictured. It is young enough and in good enough condition to create a nice bonsai with in 10 or 15 years. Material as display in picture #4 should be available from most bonsai nurseries. Caveat: pick one that shows evenly distributed roots from the base. What is showing in the picture does not look too good..
Never select material that you cannot judge the base and nebari. picture #1. is a good example of that.
Look to see where branching is that is useful for design or development. For this you need some training and experience. Which branches can be used for sacrifice and which are useful for design?
Watch out for longer straight trunk sections of similar diameter as the trunk below as is very evident in picture #1.

If you wish to start with more advanced material then the first decision is what is your budget? Given that you asked the question" what is a whorl" I would advise starting with younger inexpensive material as indicated above.

 

[zeejet]

Thanks for all the feedback - although for some reason this is a rare case where I've walked away from a BN discussion feeling more confused and less confident in how I'm going to move forward. I may wait until my next intensive to ask a bonsai pro where to start (if at all - Brent Walston did say in that article that JBP is not for beginners and I'm barely a year into bonsai).

 

[Applicative]

I think what I have tended to see, is it's harder and longer to get to a finished place with pines, in part because of how they bud etc. you need a lot of intentionally, which as we learn as we go comes with practice.

I don't think there's anything not for beginners but it's just less forgiving and less fixable is all.

 

[Jrmcmich]

Thanks for all the feedback - although for some reason this is a rare case where I've walked away from a BN discussion feeling more confused and less confident in how I'm going to move forward. I may wait until my next intensive to ask a bonsai pro where to start (if at all - Brent Walston did say in that article that JBP is not for beginners and I'm barely a year into bonsai).

I’m just in my second season as well. I got A small JBP from @cmeg1 which he has an eBay store with these from time to time. If you look up his thread he usually posts when these are available. While they are small seem very healthy and can learn as you grow it. Just a thought

 

[Srt8madness]

Thanks for all the feedback - although for some reason this is a rare case where I've walked away from a BN discussion feeling more confused and less confident in how I'm going to move forward. I may wait until my next intensive to ask a bonsai pro where to start (if at all - Brent Walston did say in that article that JBP is not for beginners and I'm barely a year into bonsai).

Don't let that frighten you off. JBP take a long time to develop, and in 2 or 3 years you'll be kicking yourself for not getting some material sooner. You can even sow from seed, it's the slowest way but allows you to control the whole process. You'll have plenty of time to study how pine development is done in the meantime.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thanks for all the feedback - although for some reason this is a rare case where I've walked away from a BN discussion feeling more confused and less confident in how I'm going to move forward. I may wait until my next intensive to ask a bonsai pro where to start (if at all - Brent Walston did say in that article that JBP is not for beginners and I'm barely a year into bonsai).

The successfully growing and styling of bonsai material mostly depends on the amount of time, focus and which resources one has to help along the way. No mainline bonsai tree is essentially difficult to make into bonsai, but some require much more work and focus.

Personally feel JBP are much easier to successfully grow and style into bonsai than maples and azaleas, especially in successfully styling Yet in a couple years likely this will likely change as more knowledge and experience is gained.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Wulfskaar]

Thanks for all the feedback - although for some reason this is a rare case where I've walked away from a BN discussion feeling more confused and less confident in how I'm going to move forward. I may wait until my next intensive to ask a bonsai pro where to start (if at all - Brent Walston did say in that article that JBP is not for beginners and I'm barely a year into bonsai).

Please don't let this thread scare you off.

When looking for JBP, I think you want to look at trunk thickness and low branching and/or low needles that might one day become branches.

JBP is one of the most studied and predictable species for bonsai, so there shouldn't be much guesswork involved in development. You just have to have an idea of where you want to go with it.

Any of those trees you posted would make a fine bonsai. Some might take longer than others to get to where you want it to go.

If I were going to choose one of those trees you posted, it would be the first one. It's got the thickest trunk and low branching and needles.