Ryan neil elongating species

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Hi i'm watching Pruning Practices on Ryan neils archive videos.

He mentions elongating species? Ie, spruce, fur and red wood.

What does that mean
 

zelk

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I think it means species that do not back bud. In other words, new growth is only possible from elongation of existing foliage.
 

PiñonJ

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I think it means species that do not back bud. In other words, new growth is only possible from elongation of existing foliage.
No, this is not what it means. It refers to species which typically have one big extension of growth per year and store their resources primarily in the vascular system (thus, this is their center of strength, not the roots, or foliage). There are exceptions to the one push of growth, notably redwoods.
 

0soyoung

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This is another of his terms that are quite confusing because every plant grows by extending. But, I speculate that he's talking extension of the woody stem as opposed extension of the foliage.
  • Non-extending (?):
    • Juniper, thuja, and cryptometia, for example, grow at the leaf tips.
    • Lines of green leaf eventually lignify and become stem with age.
  • Extending (?)
    • Pine, hemlock, Douglas fir, spruce, fir, all angiosperms (flowering; aka 'deciduous'), for example.

... maybe?
 

PiñonJ

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This is another of his terms that are quite confusing because every plant grows by extending. But, I speculate that he's talking extension of the woody stem as opposed extension of the foliage.
  • Non-extending (?):
    • Juniper, thuja, and cryptometia, for example, grow at the leaf tips.
    • Lines of green leaf eventually lignify and become stem with age.
  • Extending (?)
    • Pine, hemlock, Douglas fir, spruce, fir, all angiosperms (flowering; aka 'deciduous'), for example.

... maybe?
No, I'd say massive storage of resources in the vascular system is his major criterion. So Thuja is grouped in extending species. Pines are not, because their major storage is in the roots. For most species in the category, those resources are invested in one big "extension" of new shoots every spring, then the tree goes back to storing resources (and producing back buds).
 

zelk

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thanks for clarifying. I found this confusing as well.
 

0soyoung

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The shoots - or, as you put it, the woody stems.
Except that is not what you said.
You say pines are not in this group because they grow like potatoes, storing energy in their roots.

IMHO, the reason for such terminology is that it has obvious intuitive associations. This just doesn't.
 

PiñonJ

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Except that is not what you said.
You say pines are not in this group because they grow like potatoes, storing energy in their roots.

IMHO, the reason for such terminology is that it has obvious intuitive associations. This just doesn't.
Yeah, as I said, the main criterion is storage of resources in the vascular system, so naming it after a growth pattern is probably not the clearest terminology, especially since some species within the group don't follow that pattern and some species outside the group do (e.g. single-flush pines). I guess 'extending species' just has a better ring to it than 'major storage of resources in the vascular system species.' Maybe they could be called 'vascular species?'
 

my nellie

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That was a puzzle for me, too.... "Elongating species" o_O
However, the clarification (for which I'm thankful) is still puzzling me...
 

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For anyone not familiar with Bonsai Mirai, Ryan Neil offers three courses of study: Pines, Junipers, and Elongating Species. The reason for the three categories is that each has its own work calendar.
So then, everything else beyond Pines & Junipers, comes under the Elongating species category....
No, I'd say massive storage of resources in the vascular system is his major criterion. So Thuja is grouped in extending species. Pines are not, because their major storage is in the roots. For most species in the category, those resources are invested in one big "extension" of new shoots every spring, then the tree goes back to storing resources (and producing back buds).
And how can an ordinary hobbyist distinguish where the massive storage of resources for each species is lying?
 

PiñonJ

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So then, everything else beyond Pines & Junipers, comes under the Elongating species category....
For conifers, for the most part, yes. Broadleaf deciduous are not included. Ryan is covering some deciduous topics in his live streams, but he does not offer formal courses on them.
And how can an ordinary hobbyist distinguish where the massive storage of resources for each species is lying?
By studying with a bonsai professional, or in a horticulture program! o_O The centers of strength for the categories I mentioned are: Pines - roots; Junipers - foliage; extending species - vascular system.
 

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The centers of strength for the categories I mentioned are: Pines - roots; Junipers - foliage; extending species - vascular system
Ahh, the old metaphorical 'strength' and 'energy'. Pines are not real good about growing roots, just try air-layering one or to root a cutting.

The 'strength' is as in the tale of Sampson and Delilah

Removing some pine roots weakens the tree markedly, but it readily recovers from removal of a lot foliage (ala JBP). I think of this as 'weakly grows roots' instead of pine roots are Sampson's hair.
Junipers are the opposite - they will root pretty easily, but are sensitive to foliage removal - just mow off all those nice growing tips two or three times a season and it is easy to see that the foliage of junipers is Sampson's hair.do

I don't think this has anything to with where starches (carbohydrates) are predominantly stored in the plant.
 

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Ahh, the old metaphorical 'strength' and 'energy'. Pines are not real good about growing roots, just try air-layering one or to root a cutting.

The 'strength' is as in the tale of Sampson and Delilah

Removing some pine roots weakens the tree markedly, but it readily recovers from removal of a lot foliage (ala JBP). I think of this as 'weakly grows roots' instead of pine roots are Sampson's hair.
Junipers are the opposite - they will root pretty easily, but are sensitive to foliage removal - just mow off all those nice growing tips two or three times a season and it is easy to see that the foliage of junipers is Sampson's hair.do

I don't think this has anything to with where starches (carbohydrates) are predominantly stored in the plant.
I think in the case of pines, they do store carbohydrates in those thick roots. Junipers don't store a lot of carbohydrates in the foliage, they just need that photosynthetic surface area to keep the tree supplied with carbohydrates.
 

0soyoung

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I think in the case of pines, they do store carbohydrate in those thick roots. Junipers don't store a lot of carbohydrates in the foliage, they just need that photosynthetic surface area to keep the tree supplied with carbohydrates.
Carbs are stored as starch grains in living cells throughout the tree - of that I am certain. For me, where I am 'fat and fleshy' is indeed where most of my excess calories are stored. It is also true of potato plants. I am unsure about trees, but highly skeptical that and fleshy' structures are necessarily indicative of that. There are living cells mixed throughout the live-wood of all trees and I would venture a guess to store the greatest amount of starch simply because it is the biggest physical portion of any tree.

The suggestion is that bare rooting a p. thunbergii from dirt/pot-soil is bad not because p. thunbergii has a low capacity for growing roots, but is because doing so washes away vital starch stored in the roots? I ask rhetorically. P. mugo and p. sylvestris have comparably thick, fleshy roots, but a much greater capacity for root growth as measured by how aggressively I can bare root and root prune them.

... yadda, yadda, yadda.
 
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