Rose Bush?

[JoeH]

Will it work? Its got a lot of character and its own ecosystem with the moss and resurrection fern on it. Got free from a friend as it sat in the nursery for years. I think its 7 Sisters. Small pink flowers. I barerooted it, cut back the roots and the crown and repotted it in the soil it came with a few weeks ago and it has started to bud out lower on the trunks so I can chop the long sticks eventually.

 

[0soyoung]

Will it work?

It is a woody perennial plant.
It has the elements of a bonsai.
The question is whether you have what it takes to get it there.

I have a small rose too, that I am testing myself with.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

If it's not grafted, and if it's not producing suckers like the rebels roses can be, and if you can manage dieback.. Then you'd make a good gardener (really, people pay money to have their roses trimmed and cared for around here).
Would it work as a bonsai? I am not sure if it would. Yes, you will have a wonderful silhouette but my guess is that you want them for their flowers. That's a bit harder in bonsai, because usually/clasically they form in runners coming from year-old wood that was cut back.
I would go for it. If it doesn't work out, you'll still have a nice plant in the garden.

 

[Bananaman]

It is a woody perennial plant.
It has the elements of a bonsai.
The question is whether you have what it takes to get it there.

I have a small rose too, that I am testing myself with.

Wow, that sounds familiar????

 

[0soyoung]

Wow, that sounds familiar????

Yah. IIRC, it was some guy over on the Bonsai Study Group.
Lemme see ... what was his name?

 

[JoeH]

If it's not grafted, and if it's not producing suckers like the rebels roses can be, and if you can manage dieback.. Then you'd make a good gardener (really, people pay money to have their roses trimmed and cared for around here).
Would it work as a bonsai? I am not sure if it would. Yes, you will have a wonderful silhouette but my guess is that you want them for their flowers. That's a bit harder in bonsai, because usually/clasically they form in runners coming from year-old wood that was cut back.
I would go for it. If it doesn't work out, you'll still have a nice plant in the garden.

Pretty sure its not a graft, I may have originally dug this up when I worked at the garden. I'm more like Morticia when it comes to the flowers, so I'd rather get it into a shape and have the flowers be a byproduct. For now I will let it ride and see where it goes growing.

 

[JoeH]

It is a woody perennial plant.
It has the elements of a bonsai.
The question is whether you have what it takes to get it there.

I have a small rose too, that I am testing myself with.

When I get a new plant I look up to see if it is used at all for Bonsai and don't find a lot on Roses so I wasn't sure. Its got a really interesting old looking trunk and root system so I will give it a go.

 

[Bananaman]

Yah. IIRC, it was some guy over on the Bonsai Study Group.
Lemme see ... what was his name?

"The Bully"?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Uh, I'm not sure the provenance on this plant is correct, who ever gave it to you might have been mistaken. You have what looks like roots, then a ''trunk'' that had been completely buried, then a knot of old wood that repeatedly sent up ''canes'', the branches that grew and bloomed. This is the classic appearance of a grafted rose. The deep roots and smooth formerly subterranean trunk is likely a standard rose understock, a species rose selection that is unusual in that it does not sucker. Rose understock usually has small white flowers with only 5 petals. The knot at the top of the ''trunk'' is the scion, and is a different genetics. It will have the 'pretty' roses we all know and love. If this rose was the scion on its own roots, it would not have that ''trunk''. Instead the roots would come directly from the knot at the top. This also means it is not the ''Seven Sister's Rose'', the 'Seven Sisters Rose' is usually grown on its own roots, and flowers only once per growing season. 'Seven Sisters' is pretty, has a serious fanclub & groupies, and in general while pretty it is not all that great a rose.

If you want roses on their own roots hit a mail order nursery like Heirloom Roses. I have bought from them, anything over a 4 inch band pot tends to be expensive, but their quality it good and if you shop only the sale plants they are pretty good. All their roses are on their own roots. https://www.heirloomroses.com/

 

[JoeH]

Uh, I'm not sure the provenance on this plant is correct, who ever gave it to you might have been mistaken. You have what looks like roots, then a ''trunk'' that had been completely buried, then a knot of old wood that repeatedly sent up ''canes'', the branches that grew and bloomed. This is the classic appearance of a grafted rose. The deep roots and smooth formerly subterranean trunk is likely a standard rose understock, a species rose selection that is unusual in that it does not sucker. Rose understock usually has small white flowers with only 5 petals. The knot at the top of the ''trunk'' is the scion, and is a different genetics. It will have the 'pretty' roses we all know and love. If this rose was the scion on its own roots, it would not have that ''trunk''. Instead the roots would come directly from the knot at the top. This also means it is not the ''Seven Sister's Rose'', the 'Seven Sisters Rose' is usually grown on its own roots, and flowers only once per growing season. 'Seven Sisters' is pretty, has a serious fanclub & groupies, and in general while pretty it is not all that great a rose.

If you want roses on their own roots hit a mail order nursery like Heirloom Roses. I have bought from them, anything over a 4 inch band pot tends to be expensive, but their quality it good and if you shop only the sale plants they are pretty good. All their roses are on their own roots. https://www.heirloomroses.com/

it was free so I am not hung up on what it was, where it came from all they ever had were seven sisters Julia child and cracker so its one of those three and I remember digging up the 7 sisters. I think a lot of the odd shape of the trunk is moss. it has been in the pot for years and I dug down 3 inches just to find root flare. I will see what happens and if it blooms will know better what it is. I didn't cut it back real hard as I am not all that familiar with rose growth habits, and now I know. there was a lot of deadwood above and it was just stewing in a mess of leaves and muck .

 

[Hack Yeah!]

Any one ever try knock out roses? I've got some I'm ripping out anyway, large gnarly trunks

 

[0soyoung]

"The Bully"?

THAT'S THE GUY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


???

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Roses, if you like them, are worth messing around with. I've seen photos of a few good rose as bonsai. I like them more as a kusamono like planting, especially the miniature varieties. Or I just grow them as potted plants. It takes decades to get most of them to ''trunk up''. One the farm we have the invasive species Rosa multiflora. I've dug up beastly woody, knobby, gnarly root systems. But the long, viciously spined canes had me tossing out the whole damn thing. Plus R. multiflora only blooms once a year which if I am going to go through the trouble of raising a rose, is simply not enough for me.

'Knock Out' roses. That series is mostly propagated on their own roots, because they are very vigorous on their own roots. Most miniature and mini-floras are propagated on their own roots. So if you find one that has a gnarly trunk, or gnarly roots, sure, well worth ''messing around with''.

 

[JoeH]

If it ever buds out way lower on the trunk I will lop the entire mess off above. If not I will see where it goes.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

If it ever buds out way lower on the trunk I will lop the entire mess off above. If not I will see where it goes.

There's only about 5 commonly used different understocks used for roses, and all of them only bloom once a year. I would work harder at getting a part of the Scion to form it's own roots. You got a 50% chance it is 'Julia Child' which is a great, continuous blooming yellow floribunda. (Assuming it's not 7 Sisters because it is grafted).

Roses root fairly easily from semi-hardwood cuttings. Not sure about air layering.

 

[JoeH]

There's only about 5 commonly used different understocks used for roses, and all of them only bloom once a year. I would work harder at getting a part of the Scion to form it's own roots. You got a 50% chance it is 'Julia Child' which is a great, continuous blooming yellow floribunda. (Assuming it's not 7 Sisters because it is grafted).

Roses root fairly easily from semi-hardwood cuttings. Not sure about air layering.

I believe all the Julia Child died in the ground due to a disease issue that I don't recall what it was. The bush was originally buried all the way up to where the mossy area is in its pot. I stuck one cutting in another pot to see if it will take, but if not I still have this monstrosity. I guess time will tell what it is.

 

[rockm]

I had a very large collected wild rose (white multiflora rose) as a bonsai for a few years. The trunk was eight inches across and warty and pretty nice. The plant was collected from an old horsepasture in central Va. It had bee growing up the support line of a telephone pole for decades, probably since the 70's.

Anyway, it was given to me be its original collectors. They said "yeah, it's great, but it will wear out its welcome..."

They were right. The plant was just---plain--annoying...It grew wildly and would throw eight feet of extension growth in a few weeks. All that new growth had to be cut back hard to keep it compact. All that new growth bristled with thorns, large and small and even tiny. All those thorns made it impossible to pass the plant on the bench without getting grabbed.

constantly cutting back those canes didn't produce much in the way of ramification, which isn't unusual with a vining species. So mostly all that pruning work was just to keep the plant from overgrowing my backyard, and not to whip it into a bonsai.

Additionally, like its apple tree cousins, it drew all kinds of sucking insects from aphids to wooly adelgids to unidentifiable bugs. Mildew came in warmer wetter summers too, which brings me to the issue that made me return the plant to the wild. ROT. That large trunk had had its share of rotting. The previous owners had diligently applied lime sulfur to it for years to keep the decay from progressing. The trunk looked fine, but one day I accidently poke the treated wood with the handle of a bonsai shear. It tore through the wood like a chopstick through an eggshell. Although the lime sulfur had preserved the top surface of the wood, that harder surface wood had forced water to drain BEHIND it, back into the trunk's interior wood. All of it was rotted. So much so, that solving the problem would have made the remaining trunk extremely unstable and ugly.

Bottom line, the rose was fun for a while, but over time it became a pain in the ass that wore out its welcome.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Roses, love 'em or hate 'em. From photos I've gathered off the net over the years most do not fit ''classic'' bonsai definitions. They have been used off and on, even at Kokufu-ten.

Image by J White from 2013 Kokufu-ten.



Rose from Owen Reich's Blog, image by Owen Reich. My notes are a bit scrambled, when I scarfed this picture I thought is was a Rosa palustris collected from a swamp somewhere in Owen's home region, Kentucky or Tennessee. I did not dig back in Owen's Blog to see if my memory was correct. R. palustris is a North American native swamp rose with pink to white flowers that only blooms once a year.


Rosa wichuraiana image by Gazou, sometime before 2013


Posa polyantha posted on IBC June 2016 by Herbert A of Austria, image and tree by Herbert A.


Rosa 'Lady Banks' image by and owned by Steve Kudela from BNut April 2016


The above are all somewhat ''tree like'' and also show that wild slanting or cascading form is most common. I believe all the above bloom only once per year.

Now some that are more Kusamono like

Rose "Baby and Balls Penjing" by Nick Lenz, in the care of David Crust at the time of the photo. Image property of David Crust. I believe this is one of the repeat blooming modern miniature roses or a repeat blooming modern floribunda rose.


Rose by Greg Brendan, Brendan Studios, image scarfed from Brenden Studio's blog.


Rose Kusamono By Young Choe, image from Young Choe's blog 2017. Pot by Bill Stufflebeem


Rose shohin by Harushi


Rosa 'Ralph Moore' a repeat blooming miniature rose that is actually fragrant. Pre-bonsai, owned by me, not old enough to be called anything, eventually a kusamono.


So it is all over the map, some Rose examples I found have been long time cultivated plants of great age (the Kokufu-ten 2013 example), Some were old collected plants, like the Owen Reich's. Most have been garden raised, of varying ages but not of tremendous age. Most take quite a while to develop any sort of trunk. Grow out. prune back, grow out prune back, repeat.

 

[Owen Reich]

Here’s a better photo of my rose. It’s a Rosa palustris and the info above is pretty much correct. I collected it in a swamp in Tennessee. All original pruning done by beavers. 75% of the trunk just melted away 3 years ago. I designed a metal sculpture and glass container for it, but the trunk melted while the metalwork was underway. I’ll make it work eventually. Container is Kowatari period. Table by Tom Scott of Chattanooga, TN.

 

[Owen Reich]

I found that keeping nitrogen levels low for the first half of the year really helped keep the branches tight, and avoid 6’ shoots. It’s totally capable of that. With blooms forming on new terminal growth, withholding fertilizer was the only way to keep the blooms close to the trunk for that exhibition.