Rhododendron indicum or Satsuki or same?

[just.wing.it]

So all Satsukis are a cultivar group of Rhododendron indicum....as I understand it....
And how many different Satsukis are there? Not counting hybrids...

 

[just.wing.it]

I guess there are many...right?
And the various names like Chinzan, for example, is one variety of the cultivar Satsuki, which is one group of R. indicum, right?

 

[Eric Group]

So... technically I think it is like this: R. Indicum is the species, Satsuki is the cultivar... Chinzan, Wakaebisu, Miyuki... are varieties of the cultivar.

How many Satsuki varieties are there? A LOT! Hundreds easily, maybe thousands? They have been cultivated for so long in Japan, and even here in the US in recent years... I am not aware of anyone knowing the exact number of different varieties.
Here is a decent list:
http://satsukimania.com/en/varieties

This has some links to more comprehensive lists...
http://azaleas.org/index.pl/satsuki.html

Certainly not all of them..

Hope that helps!

 

[just.wing.it]

So... technically I think it is like this: R. Indicum is the species, Satsuki is the cultivar... Chinzan, Wakaebisu, Miyuki... are varieties of the cultivar.

How many Satsuki varieties are there? A LOT! Hundreds easily, maybe thousands? They have been cultivated for so long in Japan, and even here in the US in recent years... I am not aware of anyone knowing the exact number of different varieties.
Here is a decent list:
http://satsukimania.com/en/varieties

This has some links to more comprehensive lists...
http://azaleas.org/index.pl/satsuki.html

Certainly not all of them..

Hope that helps!

Thanks for clearing that up for me!

 

[Steve Kudela]

indeed, r. indicum is the species. Satsuki is translated as 5th month bloomer. I have an old satsuki encyclopedia that has over 900 cultivars in it. I think that there are over 1500 different ones. I think that they are all hybrids, could be wrong though.

 

[MichaelS]

Indicum is a species, but the satsukis we see are hybrids between Rh. indicum and Rh. eriocarpum. They vary in the degree of one or the other species in their make up. Both eriocarpum and indicum have been called satsuki. Satsuki is not a cultivar, just a generic mane for those plants that flower in May in Japan. Chinzan and Kinsai etc are the cultivars. I believe a third species is also involved. Rh nakaharae from Taiwan.

 

[just.wing.it]

indeed, r. indicum is the species. Satsuki is translated as 5th month bloomer. I have an old satsuki encyclopedia that has over 900 cultivars in it. I think that there are over 1500 different ones. I think that they are all hybrids, could be wrong though.

That sound like a cool book, thanks!

 

[Steve Kudela]

That sound like a cool book, thanks!

thought I would take a minute to show you. it seems to have been a help. There are just sooooo many of these things, some with just enough variation to distinguish it from another. I've had as many as 29 cultivars , I'm down to 7 now. Sold a few, some just don't like this far south. I have one called matsunami, the pine tree wave, spoke with Russell Coker years ago about it.............the conclusion was that it is at the southern end of it's range. Interesting species. Thanks man!

 

[just.wing.it]

thought I would take a minute to show you. it seems to have been a help. There are just sooooo many of these things, some with just enough variation to distinguish it from another. I've had as many as 29 cultivars , I'm down to 7 now. Sold a few, some just don't like this far south. I have one called matsunami, the pine tree wave, spoke with Russell Coker years ago about it.............the conclusion was that it is at the southern end of it's range. Interesting species. Thanks man!View attachment 135592 View attachment 135593 View attachment 135594

Dang! Cool!
Can you read that?

 

[just.wing.it]

thought I would take a minute to show you. it seems to have been a help. There are just sooooo many of these things, some with just enough variation to distinguish it from another. I've had as many as 29 cultivars , I'm down to 7 now. Sold a few, some just don't like this far south. I have one called matsunami, the pine tree wave, spoke with Russell Coker years ago about it.............the conclusion was that it is at the southern end of it's range. Interesting species. Thanks man!View attachment 135592 View attachment 135593 View attachment 135594

Is there a single variety that is simply called R. indicum/satsuki?
As well as all the ones that fall under that umbrella?
For example I have a plant that was marketed as a Satsuki. When it arrived the tag on it only said R. indicum....
Is this just a vague description?
Or is this "The" R. indicum?
Seems like it is probably some variety that goes unnamed, right?

 

[Steve Kudela]

Dang! Cool!
Can you read that?

oh no, mainly used it to visually identify one from another. And just for looking at all the variation.For instance, I have a cultivar named sakuragata. a beautiful whitish bloom with a deep lavender rim, every bloom. There is another cultivar named kogetsu. In that book, kogetsu is shown with 7 or 8 variations of bloom, one of which is the exact same as sakuragata. It'll will have all these variations and smack in the middle it'll have an entire branch that shows the same bloom as sakuragata. If you had a younger kogetsu, it might only show that pattern. Look at the term Satsuki as a common name covering all of them with r. indicum as the scientific name. I'd say that you have a plant that someone forgot to label as to the cultivar. Wait until it blooms and get us a photograph if you will. Hope this helps

 

[just.wing.it]

oh no, mainly used it to visually identify one from another. And just for looking at all the variation.For instance, I have a cultivar named sakuragata. a beautiful whitish bloom with a deep lavender rim, every bloom. There is another cultivar named kogetsu. In that book, kogetsu is shown with 7 or 8 variations of bloom, one of which is the exact same as sakuragata. It'll will have all these variations and smack in the middle it'll have an entire branch that shows the same bloom as sakuragata. If you had a younger kogetsu, it might only show that pattern. Look at the term Satsuki as a common name covering all of them with r. indicum as the scientific name. I'd say that you have a plant that someone forgot to label as to the cultivar. Wait until it blooms and get us a photograph if you will. Hope this helps

It does help, thanks man!
I got the one in question from Brussels.
I will post pictures when it blooms....then I'll chop.

 

[Steve Kudela]

It does help, thanks man!
I got the one in question from Brussels.
I will post pictures when it blooms....then I'll chop.

Yes!, learn to be ruthless with cutback, it won't hurt them at all. just be sure to seal all cuts asap. Countless examples from Japan where they will take a 200 or 300 yo garden tree, strip all branches off and build their tree from those new shoots. Some are quite extrordinary!!!

 

[namnhi]

thought I would take a minute to show you. it seems to have been a help. There are just sooooo many of these things, some with just enough variation to distinguish it from another. I've had as many as 29 cultivars , I'm down to 7 now. Sold a few, some just don't like this far south. I have one called matsunami, the pine tree wave, spoke with Russell Coker years ago about it.............the conclusion was that it is at the southern end of it's range. Interesting species. Thanks man!View attachment 135592 View attachment 135593 View attachment 135594

Look at those nails... I immediately know you are a gardener. LOL

 

[Steve Kudela]

Look at those nails... I immediately know you are a gardener. LOL

Yes, woodworker/gardeners do not need to have long fingernails, Lol. No rings or other jewelry either............I came here with 10, wanna leave here with 10!

 

[Harunobu]

Is there a single variety that is simply called R. indicum/satsuki?

Yes, those that occur in the wild in nature.

But, some sub-populations are isolated. The species on Yakushima island are apparently morphologically distinct from mainland species. And then there are purple flowered mutants, when most are actually red. On top of that, there are areas where R.indicum and R.eriocarpum/tamurae habitat overlap each other, and there natural hybrids can be found.

As well as all the ones that fall under that umbrella?

Yes, it is an umbrella term.

For example I have a plant that was marketed as a Satsuki. When it arrived the tag on it only said R. indicum....
Is this just a vague description?
Or is this "The" R. indicum?
Seems like it is probably some variety that goes unnamed, right?

Not all satsuki are hybrids or forms with interesting horticulture properties. In a sense, there is 'the' R.indicum. I would say that 'Osakazuki' is a purple form of 'the' R.indicum. And reverted 'Kinsai' can also be called 'the' R.indicum.

Every cultivar has a name. If you want to see species, ie wild-type, you can go to a botanical garden.

As for what really is 'the' R.indicum, you can get the genome sequences for like 80 to 500 euro/dollar. If you do that, you will find there is no 'the' R.indicum.

I just decided to order the 2014 dictionary. I guess I am 3 years late, and in 1 to 2 years, the 2018 version will be on the market. My 2010 version is kind of worn out.


I don't remember ever seen a variety in my 2010 dictionary that is claimed to be of R.nakaharae descent. I myself have some 'Kozan' x 'Alexander' seedlings. And Dr. Tsuneshige Rokujo send seeds of those crosses to the US. So Japanese were experimenting with them.

 

[just.wing.it]

Yes, those that occur in the wild in nature.

But, some sub-populations are isolated. The species on Yakushima island are apparently morphologically distinct from mainland species. And then there are purple flowered mutants, when most are actually red. On top of that, there are areas where R.indicum and R.eriocarpum/tamurae habitat overlap each other, and there natural hybrids can be found.



Yes, it is an umbrella term.



Not all satsuki are hybrids or forms with interesting horticulture properties. In a sense, there is 'the' R.indicum. I would say that 'Osakazuki' is a purple form of 'the' R.indicum. And reverted 'Kinsai' can also be called 'the' R.indicum.

Every cultivar has a name. If you want to see species, ie wild-type, you can go to a botanical garden.

As for what really is 'the' R.indicum, you can get the genome sequences for like 80 to 500 euro/dollar. If you do that, you will find there is no 'the' R.indicum.

I just decided to order the 2014 dictionary. I guess I am 3 years late, and in 1 to 2 years, the 2018 version will be on the market. My 2010 version is kind of worn out.


I don't remember ever seen a variety in my 2010 dictionary that is claimed to be of R.nakaharae descent. I myself have some 'Kozan' x 'Alexander' seedlings. And Dr. Tsuneshige Rokujo send seeds of those crosses to the US. So Japanese were experimenting with them.

That's awesome!
Very interesting....
Thank you!

 

[Hack Yeah!]

Could anyone explain where Southern Indicum would fall, is it technically a satsuki? I have a gg gerbing

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The "southern indicum", are mostly "pure" R. indicum, bred from heat tolerant examples of the species. These were mostly selected and or bred by nurseries in the USA. They could be lumped into Satsuki, except they were selected for their heat tolerance, a trait of economic important to the USA nursery business.

In addition to the heat tolerance, they tend to have larger flowers than favorite for bonsai Satsuki. They also tend to be larger growing plants as appropriate for landscaping. Larger flowers are a negative for bonsai, as is larger stature bush habit. They can be used for bonsai, but one has to plan for these habits.

So yes, all southern indicum could be lumped into Satsuki, but usually are kept separate because they tend to be be larger bushes, larger flowered, and more heat tolerant. Their genetic background is believed to be all R indicum, where Satsuki may be of hybrid origin, though R indicum is the main ancestor for Satsuki.

 

[shinmai]

There are historical references to satsuki azaleas in Japanese writings from over 1,000 years ago. Some scholars believe that the first of what we now know as satsuki were the product of natural hybridization of indicum and eriocarpum. Apparently one or the other naturally grew closer to rivers, while the other would be further uphill--I can't remember which did what. The overwhelming majority of what we would call satsuki azaleas are cultivars, inasmuch as 'cultivar' is derived from cultivated variety. Simply put, a variety is a version of a plant that occurs in nature, while cultivars are cultivated, bred, and propagated by humans for specific features or traits.
Some excellent reference links have been shared by previous posters. I would recommend the book, 'A Brocade Pillow', which was published in 1984 and is fairly readily available via Amazon. It is a translation with notes and commentary of a monograph written in 1690 by Ihei Ito, a gardener to royalty. Its subtitle is 'the azaleas of old Japan', and in it he identifies 330 then-extant cultivars with woodcut illustrations.
If you wish to totally geek out, go to http://hiryuen.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7971&d=1272537437. It's the website of an Italian bonsai group, and the link is to a document posted there. It's a draft of a catalogue of satsuki azaleas by Paul Eslinger done in 2006, about 100 pages long, and indexes them by variety name in Japanese, with English translations where available, and also by flower colors and variations.