Repot and air layer at the same time?

[AcerAddict]

Hello all. It's my first time posting here and as the title states, I'd like to get some thoughts on doing a major root cut, repot, AND air layering at the same time. I just bought this Shishigashira maple over the weekend from a local "mom and pop" garden center here in coastal southeast North Carolina. It's about 5.5 feet (1.65 m) tall from the top of the pot and the trunk is 3.5 inches (8.9 cm) in diameter just above the root base. It came in a tall, narrow 15 gallon pot, and I've already moved it into a short, wide 15 gallon pot. It was so pot bound that I had to cut the original plastic pot off to get the root ball out. I'm sure the tree appreciates an extra 2-3 inches of space all around its roots now. I only did very light teasing of the roots before putting it into the wider pot. It just has standard soil as it came from the nursery.

My plans for this tree are to air layer several of the taller branches next spring, and at the same time trim the root ball down significantly to get it into a bonsai training pot. After that, I'll have some design decisions to make before doing the major branch cuts in order to get a loose bonsai shape going. Ultimately, I want to turn this into a 24 to 36 inch (about 60-90 cm) tall bonsai. Most likely, I'll sell all the air layerings locally in order to fund the purchase of another tree.

I plan to set up the air layerings in late-March/early-April when I first start seeing new buds. Considering that Shishi's sprout air layer roots relatively fast, I'm hoping that I'll be able to cut off my new trees about 8-10 weeks later, which would be around late-May to mid-June. Is there any problem with me doing a significant cut down of the root ball at the same time I start the air layering? Or, should I leave the roots alone and wait to do my root trim and repot after I've cut the air layerings off by the end of June?

Thanks in advance, and here's some pics of the tree. Can't wait to see the fall color on this beauty!

 

[Cadillactaste]

One major incident in a year. That is a lot you intend to do. Choose one. I think air layer one year. Then reduce the roots the following spring.

 

[AcerAddict]

One major incident in a year. That is a lot you intend to do. Choose one. I think air layer one year. Then reduce the roots the following spring.

I get that. However, if I was just doing the root cut and repot, I'd have to chop off a lot of branches anyway in order to not stress the tree out by asking the remaining 65% of the roots to sustain 100% of the foliage. That's why I figured "hey, if I'm going to cut off a ton of branches anyway, might as well get some air layerings out of it."

 

[penumbra]

When you are layering a plant you want your layers to be from a vigorously growing healthy plant, not from a plant that has its own challenges. I would think that if you had a Lot of experience you might pull it off. But if you had a lot of experience you would know better than to attempt it.
Not a criticism, just the facts.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Doing the math:
Bonsai + Patience = Success

 

[Bonsai Nut]

First, welcome to the site!

I would air-layer the branches one year, and hopefully be able to get them to take and remove them the same year. You never know - sometimes air-layers don't take, and you have to recut the girdle a second time. Or else they don't take at all, and you lose the branch. It is best to do all this work on a strong tree before you repot.

Then I would worry about repotting the base... If I did so at all. Your Japanese maple, like almost all of the ones you find in the nursery trade, is a grafted tree. Japanese maple bonsai are highly prized for having good taper and smooth bark. If at all possible you want to avoid scars. Your grafting scar lump will be there forever... which is a long time even for bonsai Plus the nebari looks one-sided and off balance.

You might find yourself air-layering off the branches and then air-layering off the green maple roots, leaving you with a nice cultivar on its own roots. Think how nice it would be if you had a flat plane of surface roots, all the way around the base of the trunk!

 

[Kanorin]

I get that. However, if I was just doing the root cut and repot, I'd have to chop off a lot of branches anyway in order to not stress the tree out by asking the remaining 65% of the roots to sustain 100% of the foliage. That's why I figured "hey, if I'm going to cut off a ton of branches anyway, might as well get some air layerings out of it."

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're misunderstanding some key aspects of horticulture

• Cutting off a significant % of foliage at the same time as reducing roots is MORE stressful to a tree than reducing the roots alone
• The roots supply water to the foliage, but the foliage supplies the sugars to help to regenerate the roots following a repot. In the spring (because it's considerably cooler than the summer) a tree can handle a considerable root reduction, but then it must spend some energy regenerating those root tips to get ready for hotter weather. If you leave more foliage intact when repotting, the roots should recover more quickly (although you still can't go crazy and remove ~70% of the roots on most trees)

 

[AcerAddict]

First, welcome to the site!

I would air-layer the branches one year, and hopefully be able to get them to take and remove them the same year. You never know - sometimes air-layers don't take, and you have to recut the girdle a second time. Or else they don't take at all, and you lose the branch. It is best to do all this work on a strong tree before you repot.

Then I would worry about repotting the base... If I did so at all. Your Japanese maple, like almost all of the ones you find in the nursery trade, is a grafted tree. Japanese maple bonsai are highly prized for having good taper and smooth bark. If at all possible you want to avoid scars. Your grafting scar lump will be there forever... which is a long time even for bonsai Plus the nebari looks one-sided and off balance.

You might find yourself air-layering off the branches and then air-layering off the green maple roots, leaving you with a nice cultivar on its own roots. Think how nice it would be if you had a flat plane of surface roots, all the way around the base of the trunk!

Yeah, unfortunately five of my eight Japanese maples are grafted. Of the three that aren't, two are one-year-old green maples that I'm growing from seedlings, and one is a three-foot-high green maple in a grow pot that I'm still deciding what to do with. I don't care that my Crimson Queen and Orangeola I have in standard pots on the patio are grafts though. They're just for me and the wife to enjoy and won't be turned into bonsai. At least certainly not anytime soon, LOL.

I honestly never considered air layering off the roots on this big shishigashira though. I'll have to think about that down the road. Thanks for the welcome!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're misunderstanding some key aspects of horticulture

• Cutting off a significant % of foliage at the same time as reducing roots is MORE stressful to a tree than reducing the roots alone
• The roots supply water to the foliage, but the foliage supplies the sugars to help to regenerate the roots following a repot. In the spring (because it's considerably cooler than the summer) a tree can handle a considerable root reduction, but then it must spend some energy regenerating those root tips to get ready for hotter weather. If you leave more foliage intact when repotting, the roots should recover more quickly (although you still can't go crazy and remove ~70% of the roots on most trees)

A lot depends on the situation and the time of year. If you were doing an emergency repot in the heat of the summer, and found yourself reducing root mass, your first thought should be to reduce transpiration rates from the foliage. That includes some combination of: increasing humidity, reducing direct sun, and misting. Let's say you couldn't do any of those for one reason or another. Then you might consider reducing foliage to balance it with the reduced root mass. But just to be clear - doing this (reducing roots AND reducing foliage) often really sets a tree back by a season of growth or more.

Far better to do what you recommend. Repot at the right time of year when the tree has a lot of stored carbs to recover from the process and when temps are cool, the sun is lower on the horizon and less direct, and when you potentially have a lot of spring rain. The tree will have plenty of time to recover before the heat of summer puts maximum stress on the vascular system.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I honestly never considered air layering off the roots on this big shishigashira though. I'll have to think about that down the road. Thanks for the welcome!

One other thing to consider. With a large maple like this it is impossible to introduce movement into the lower trunk... unless you air-layer it and angle the girdle of the airlayer. Suddenly you have a JM on its own roots, with a good nebari, and a natural lean at the base of the trunk instead of being bean-pole straight. Killer!

 

[AcerAddict]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're misunderstanding some key aspects of horticulture

• Cutting off a significant % of foliage at the same time as reducing roots is MORE stressful to a tree than reducing the roots alone
• The roots supply water to the foliage, but the foliage supplies the sugars to help to regenerate the roots following a repot. In the spring (because it's considerably cooler than the summer) a tree can handle a considerable root reduction, but then it must spend some energy regenerating those root tips to get ready for hotter weather. If you leave more foliage intact when repotting, the roots should recover more quickly (although you still can't go crazy and remove ~70% of the roots on most trees)

The way I understand it is when spring time comes and the weather warms, the tree needs to start moving nutrients up the trunk and branches in order to feed all the new buds that are coming. However, if a third of the roots have been cut off, then some foliage can be taken off as well in order to lessen the amount of nutrients needed. To me, this seems like a simple supply and demand thing. If demand for nutrients is reduced by cutting enough branches to give the tree an initial bonsai shaping, then supply can also be reduced by cutting off a portion of the root system. Of course, I'm not an expert in horticulture.

I've been watching some of Peter Chan's videos on YouTube where he shows the initial stages of turning big trees into bonsai. In the majority of them, when he takes a big tree out of the ground or out of a big pot and moves it into a bonsai training pot, he does it in the early spring right before buds come out. Not only does he chop off a big portion of the roots, but he also removes a massive amount of branches to make the initial bonsai shape. I figure if a bonsai master is cutting off tons of branches at the same time he's removing a third of the root ball, then it is likely an OK thing to do. I mean, he's a master and I'm an amateur, but don't amateurs learn from watching the masters?

 

[james]

That’s a nice tree. To make the best of it, you will likely need to ground layer it. Your root base is not so hot.

However, I would not do that first. The tree needs a hard cut back, to major branches and leader. Instead of throwing that all away, airlayer all the branches off first (year one), next spring is best. After they come off, you can begin developing the tree and ground layer (year two).

 

[Bonsai Nut]

The way I understand it is when spring time comes and the weather warms, the tree needs to start moving nutrients up the trunk and branches in order to feed all the new buds that are coming. However, if a third of the roots have been cut off, then some foliage can be taken off as well in order to lessen the amount of nutrients needed.

No.

With a deciduous tree like a Japanese maple, in the fall it stores carbs in the trunk and branches and roots - reabsorbing chlorophyll from the leaves (which is why they change pretty colors) and basically getting ready for winter.

In the spring, you can take a dormant Japanese maple and stick it in sand with zero nutrients, and the tree will still push strong spring growth just from all the stored carbs. However to maintain growth the tree will eventually need nutrients from the soil - and the roots to provide them.

Don't forget - roots do not provide energy; they provide water and the nutrients used in the life processes of the tree. The energy is provided by photosynthesis. If you cut off all the leaves of a tree the roots will die because they starve to death. If you cut off all the roots of a tree the leaves will die because they don't get any water and dry out - not because they starve. Cut off a ton of roots and keep the foliage from drying out, and the tree can last a long time and will have plenty of time to recover, because the leaves are still providing a stream of energy for growth and wound recovery.

 

[AcerAddict]

With a deciduous tree like a Japanese maple, in the fall it stores carbs in the trunk and branches and roots - reabsorbing chlorophyll from the leaves (which is why they change pretty colors) and basically getting ready for winter.

Alrighty. This part I knew.

In the spring, you can take a dormant Japanese maple and stick it in sand with zero nutrients, and the tree will still push strong spring growth just from all the stored carbs.

Haha, this part I didn't know. Probably because I would never think to try that, even as a wild experiment.

Don't forget - roots do not provide energy; they provide nutrients used in the life processes of the tree. The energy is provided by photosynthesis. If you cut off all the leaves the roots will die because they starve to death. If you cut off all the roots the leaves will die because they don't get any water and dry out - not because they starve. Cut off a ton of roots and keep the foliage from drying out, and the tree can last a long time and will have plenty of time to recover.

OK, so this is what I was basing my original question on. I don't ever want to take away too much foliage or too much root system at once.

Going forward, it sounds like the best path for this tree is to air layer the branches next spring and leave the rest alone for the remainder of the year. Then in spring 2023, I will set up the air layer for the trunk. I like this plan because I won't ever have to mess with the roots at all whatsoever. Once the trunk air layer is ready, it can go into a training pot straight away and start growing a nice nebari for the rest of 2023. Finally, in spring 2024, I will start cutting branches to get my initial shape and begin focused training.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Having excess roots is constantly signally the tree to produce "more foliage, more foliage" because of the excess cytokinin growth hormone being produced - in the same way that excess foliage is signalling the tree to produce "more roots more roots" because of the excess auxin being produced. If you have a tree with a ton of roots and keep pruning the foliage, it will respond much more strongly than a tree with few roots - even if there is plenty of water, nutrients, and sun in both cases.

 

[Shogun610]

Hello all. It's my first time posting here and as the title states, I'd like to get some thoughts on doing a major root cut, repot, AND air layering at the same time. I just bought this Shishigashira maple over the weekend from a local "mom and pop" garden center here in coastal southeast North Carolina. It's about 5.5 feet (1.65 m) tall from the top of the pot and the trunk is 3.5 inches (8.9 cm) in diameter just above the root base. It came in a tall, narrow 15 gallon pot, and I've already moved it into a short, wide 15 gallon pot. It was so pot bound that I had to cut the original plastic pot off to get the root ball out. I'm sure the tree appreciates an extra 2-3 inches of space all around its roots now. I only did very light teasing of the roots before putting it into the wider pot. It just has standard soil as it came from the nursery.

My plans for this tree are to air layer several of the taller branches next spring, and at the same time trim the root ball down significantly to get it into a bonsai training pot. After that, I'll have some design decisions to make before doing the major branch cuts in order to get a loose bonsai shape going. Ultimately, I want to turn this into a 24 to 36 inch (about 60-90 cm) tall bonsai. Most likely, I'll sell all the air layerings locally in order to fund the purchase of another tree.

I plan to set up the air layerings in late-March/early-April when I first start seeing new buds. Considering that Shishi's sprout air layer roots relatively fast, I'm hoping that I'll be able to cut off my new trees about 8-10 weeks later, which would be around late-May to mid-June. Is there any problem with me doing a significant cut down of the root ball at the same time I start the air layering? Or, should I leave the roots alone and wait to do my root trim and repot after I've cut the air layerings off by the end of June?

Thanks in advance, and here's some pics of the tree. Can't wait to see the fall color on this beauty!

View attachment 390717

View attachment 390718

If this were my tree, I’d air layer the hell out of all the branches , then replant those air layers for a couple years using a large deep tray to establish roots , then revisit for clump or forest style. Maybe even using a few air layers to develop a shohin style bonsai at the base of those thicker trunks you air layer off. You can even air layer more than once on the same branch.

 

[AcerAddict]

If this were my tree, I’d air layer the hell out of all the branches , then replant those air layers for a couple years using a large deep tray to establish roots , then revisit for clump or forest style. Maybe even using a few air layers to develop a shohin style bonsai at the base of those thicker trunks you air layer off. You can even air layer more than once on the same branch.

That sounds like a very cool idea, but we'll see what mood I'm in when I reach that point later next year. As of right now, the plan is to sell the air layerings and use the money to buy a nice pre-bonsai that's already off to a great start. I'm thinking about a trident maple, shimpaku juniper, or black pine.

I've already got at home right now two Nana junipers, a Parson's juniper, two Satsuki azaleas, a Formosa azalea, a Bloodgood maple, a small Shishigashira maple, two Rocky Mountain Pines, a Royal Poinciana (Flame tree), a Blue Jacaranda, and a hibiscus that are all in standard black grow pots. None of them are ready yet for bonsai training other than the Bloodgood maple, and even that's not super huge. I'm just going to keep it a small tree though, about 18-24" tall. All the rest have quite a bit of growing to do still before I start getting serious with them. That's why I want to buy a well-started pre-bonsai or two. They'll keep me busy while I wait for everything else to grow up.

 

[leatherback]

Having excess roots is constantly signally the tree to produce "more foliage, more foliage" because of the excess cytokinin growth hormone being produced - in the same way that excess foliage is signalling the tree to produce "more roots more roots" because of the excess auxin being produced. If you have a tree with a ton of roots and keep pruning the foliage, it will respond much more strongly than a tree with few roots - even if there is plenty of water, nutrients, and sun in both cases.

This might be the most important message in this whole thread. Once you truely grasp what this means, you start to understand how to direct growth.
If you then properly understand what healthy means you are ready for business. (It is not, my tree grew 3 pairs of leaves on each branch)

where he shows the initial stages of turning big trees into bonsai. In the majority of them, when he takes a big tree out of the ground or out of a big pot and moves it into a bonsai training pot, he does it in the early spring right before buds come out. Not only does he chop off a big portion of the roots, but he also removes a massive amount of branches to make the initial bonsai shape.

This is absolutely no problem to do. A healthy deciduous tree has so many stored reserves, it can push a new set of buds and foliage several times over, and roots will push from the cut areas within weeks of moving the tree around. But that is different from repotting and layering at the same time. The layered section does not provide the roots with energy (Removing the bark stops the flow of sugars into the tree, the layered branch becomes a parasite on the rootsystem). As such, doing multiple layers on a compromised rootsystem results in the plant sending water and nutrients to the layer, not getting anything back. It has limited roots. Normal scenario: The plant decides to sprout new branches below the layer and stops the flow to the layered section. Worst case scenario: There are too few leaves on the rest of the tree to re-grow the roots and the tree is severly weakened or dies.

 

[Moridin]

I have nothing to add to all the great advise already given. I just want to say @AcerAddict nice avatar

 

[AcerAddict]

I have nothing to add to all the great advise already given. I just want to say @AcerAddict nice avatar

Thanks! The only thing that would make it better is if he was using a maple for camouflage. I could be wrong, but I believe those are ficus leaves he's hiding in. Caddyshack was primarily filmed at Rolling Hills Golf Club in Davie, Florida. One of the reasons that course was picked is because it doesn't have any palm trees, since the movie is supposed to be set in the Midwest. Originally from south Florida myself, and a former resident of Davie, I can confirm that ficus are common all over the dang place down there, indoors and out.