BigOtto
Seed
I've ordered 10, 3" to 5" Japanese Black Pine seedlings. Now I'm wondering how to start training them as they grow out?
Gunstock
Mame
Make a landscape with them.
jcrossett
Chumono
If they are that small they're probably only a year old so the size of a pencil maybe smaller. I would plant them in the ground and fertilize them for atleast 3-5 years training the lowest branches to keep them small so you have something to work with later on. Maybe later this year put a nice bend in them. But they need to get thicker and that's really the fastest way.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Use the BNut search feature: 'a few seeds' by member Eric Schrader .
Good advice from Oso.
Also check out Jonas's blog: www.bonsaitonight.com
He has numerous articles that chronicle his experiences with growing seedlings, with great photos.
jcrossett
Chumono
I get his emails constantly why didn't I thing of that.
JoeR
Masterpiece
Here you go:
http://www.phutu.com/black-pine-creation/
That should get you started. Personally, I would plant them into large colanders with quality soil and a good fertilizer regime.
http://www.phutu.com/black-pine-creation/
That should get you started. Personally, I would plant them into large colanders with quality soil and a good fertilizer regime.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
More Ill.
Nice.!
Chew on them!
Welcome to Crazy!
Sorce
Nice.!
Chew on them!
Welcome to Crazy!
Sorce
Eric Schrader
Chumono
Yes, larger colander (at least once they get big enough to transplant into one) lots of fertilizer and lots of sun, heat and water.....like this:
And don't be afraid to let them grow. No decandling of the sacrifice branch unless you're trying to slow things down or rebalance relative vigor.
And don't be afraid to let them grow. No decandling of the sacrifice branch unless you're trying to slow things down or rebalance relative vigor.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Where do you get your colanders? I was getting them from the dollar store here but they went out of business. The same ones in the picture. Regent plastics make them but they only sell wholesale. I don't need 750.Yes, larger colander (at least once they get big enough to transplant into one) lots of fertilizer and lots of sun, heat and water.....like this:
And don't be afraid to let them grow. No decandling of the sacrifice branch unless you're trying to slow things down or rebalance relative vigor.
Eric Schrader
Chumono
I get them from a Chinese restaurant supply store on Irving street (near 25th ave) in San Francisco. With some effort I could get the name, address phone number for you but not sure they ship things. LMK if you're desperate. The one in the photo is the largest they carry, it's about two feet in diameter. I think the large ones cost about $8....but I could be mis-remembering.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
The ones I was getting were 12" for a buck a piece. I'm just going to probably make boxes out of the mesh Sorce sent.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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Hi Otto,
You are in the North Suburbs of Chicagoland, almost Wisconsin, I think you can see the "Cheddar Curtain" at the border from your house. Your winters are a little colder than mine, because you are so far from Lake Michigan. JBP is not quite hardy in our area, it will be fine 3 out of 5 winters, but eventually, a nasty winter will kill off JBP. So I would not put your seedlings in the ground. I would keep them in pots, or nursery cans, or colanders or whatever. I use Anderson Flats, only because I happen to have them. Large 5 inch deep trays, with mesh bottoms. Mesh is just barely fine enough to hold most potting mixes in. I move JBP to a protected spot for winter, where temps will stay below 40 F, but above zero F. Actually my space stays above 28F even in the coldest of winters, but you don't necessarily have to be that warm. Keeping your winter space above 23 F will allow you to keep Zone 7 and zone 6 species without much trouble.
I do recommend if you want "outdoor" bonsai, to work with species that are hardy through all of zone 4. That will make wintering trees MUCH easier. Just set them on the ground, in the shade, Mulch in or not, depending on species. Other than setting in the shade I give my Mugo pine no additional protection, and it seems to love it. For pines, mugo, jack pine, and scotts pine are highly recommended. Japanese white pine only if on its own roots, larch, Thuja, and junipers of all types work well. JBP has been the bane of my existence. I love them, want to do them well, and consistently run into one problem or another, often my own doing, with them. They are not that hard really, but to handly JBP well, there are a lot of "little tricks", to learn. But like the much hardier Chimpaku juniper, they are the "silly putty" of pines, and can be used for just about any syle, any shape, and are one of the 2 pines that Japanese bonsai is based on. The literature is deep for JBP, very thin by comparison for any other pine.
Growing from seed or young seedlings is the "slow route", it may take 5 or more years to get to the "pre-bonsai" stage, where you will be ready for your first styling. But it is an important aspect of bonsai, and well worth learning. Attached is a photo of a flat of seedlings I have going. It is a mixed flat, since I did not have enough seed of any one type to fill the flat. Pinus bungeana (Chinese Lacebark White Pine), Pinus edulis (2 needle Pinion Pine), Ostrya virginiana (Ironwood, native to our area), and a few Ginkgo, all starting their 3rd growing season. Planted the flat late summer 2012. First sprouts were 2013. Some seed did not germinate until 2014. So it is a mix of species and ages. When you mix species, watch out for one shading out the other. Photo from March, the deciduous had not leaved out yet, making pines easier to see. What is cool, all are fully winter hardy here. Don't have to move them to the cold well house for winter. And all these are not easy to find as "pre-bonsai" though they all make good bonsai. Especially the Ironwood. Ginkgo is the only "common one" here, But I just felt like tossing some in.
You are in the North Suburbs of Chicagoland, almost Wisconsin, I think you can see the "Cheddar Curtain" at the border from your house. Your winters are a little colder than mine, because you are so far from Lake Michigan. JBP is not quite hardy in our area, it will be fine 3 out of 5 winters, but eventually, a nasty winter will kill off JBP. So I would not put your seedlings in the ground. I would keep them in pots, or nursery cans, or colanders or whatever. I use Anderson Flats, only because I happen to have them. Large 5 inch deep trays, with mesh bottoms. Mesh is just barely fine enough to hold most potting mixes in. I move JBP to a protected spot for winter, where temps will stay below 40 F, but above zero F. Actually my space stays above 28F even in the coldest of winters, but you don't necessarily have to be that warm. Keeping your winter space above 23 F will allow you to keep Zone 7 and zone 6 species without much trouble.
I do recommend if you want "outdoor" bonsai, to work with species that are hardy through all of zone 4. That will make wintering trees MUCH easier. Just set them on the ground, in the shade, Mulch in or not, depending on species. Other than setting in the shade I give my Mugo pine no additional protection, and it seems to love it. For pines, mugo, jack pine, and scotts pine are highly recommended. Japanese white pine only if on its own roots, larch, Thuja, and junipers of all types work well. JBP has been the bane of my existence. I love them, want to do them well, and consistently run into one problem or another, often my own doing, with them. They are not that hard really, but to handly JBP well, there are a lot of "little tricks", to learn. But like the much hardier Chimpaku juniper, they are the "silly putty" of pines, and can be used for just about any syle, any shape, and are one of the 2 pines that Japanese bonsai is based on. The literature is deep for JBP, very thin by comparison for any other pine.
Growing from seed or young seedlings is the "slow route", it may take 5 or more years to get to the "pre-bonsai" stage, where you will be ready for your first styling. But it is an important aspect of bonsai, and well worth learning. Attached is a photo of a flat of seedlings I have going. It is a mixed flat, since I did not have enough seed of any one type to fill the flat. Pinus bungeana (Chinese Lacebark White Pine), Pinus edulis (2 needle Pinion Pine), Ostrya virginiana (Ironwood, native to our area), and a few Ginkgo, all starting their 3rd growing season. Planted the flat late summer 2012. First sprouts were 2013. Some seed did not germinate until 2014. So it is a mix of species and ages. When you mix species, watch out for one shading out the other. Photo from March, the deciduous had not leaved out yet, making pines easier to see. What is cool, all are fully winter hardy here. Don't have to move them to the cold well house for winter. And all these are not easy to find as "pre-bonsai" though they all make good bonsai. Especially the Ironwood. Ginkgo is the only "common one" here, But I just felt like tossing some in.
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Hey Eric, do you prefer growing in colanders over ground growing? what are the pros and cons of both methods? or if you have explained this elsewhere can you point me in the right direction?
Eric Schrader
Chumono
That's an interesting question. In my case, I don't really have the luxury of enough ground space (this being San Francisco.) I think I was lured into the idea of container growing like many other people by the BT#20 article and some advice from Boon. The answer to your question is a bit more nuanced than one or the other, so here goes a few thoughts.
Container growing is superior when:
Container growing is superior when:
- You want superior control in terms of nebari, branch control and maaaayyyybbbeeee barking.
- You want well-proportioned trees with a finished height under 15".
- Fine movement and growth is needed to accomplish design.
- You want a trunk more than about 3", it's just too slow. Essentially you'll spend 15 or more years just to get the bulk. For larger trees then, I think ground growing, with good and thoughtful control of the tree is the way to go.
- Cost is a factor and production numbers are high. Basically, ground is cheaper and when numbers get high that's important.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
750 trees in colanders would be a sight to behold wouldn't it?
bilbocannon
Shohin
I have really been struggling in terms of know what to do with my black pines. They are both in the ground. I look at them everyday without a clue on how i plan to train them. I did some wiring today thats about it. ^Those articles are a good start.
Lewiscarnes
Yamadori
Brian van Fleet has a really good book on developing black pine. You can get it on the Internet.
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