Question about ground layering

[Ray from PA]

Hi everyone, I've been lurking here on and off for a while, but I just signed up and this is my first post. I'm not new to bonsai, I've been dabbling in it for 15 years or so, just not very successfully. But now I want to get serious. I decided to sign up and ask because I can't find an answer for this anywhere online.

I recently found a red mulberry growing in my back yard and decided to try to bonsai it. I cut the bark ring off and put sphagnum and mulch over it about a month ago, and I now have new roots growing that are about an inch long. My question is, how long should I wait before severing the tree from it's old roots and planting over a tile? Should I do that in the spring after the new flush of growth? Or get it in the ground in September of this year. I'm in zone 6b so my frost date is I believe September 15th.

The tree is roughly 6 feet tall and pretty healthy.

 

[sorce]

Welcome to the Typing end of Crazy!

You don't have to use a tile.

That's a gimmick that shoulda ended a long time ago.

Sounds like next year this time would be safe.

Ground or air? Layer....

I gotta groundlayer mulb I was jist trimming back the other day, and I found my ropesaw!

Pics!

Sorce

 

[Ray from PA]

Thanks sorce, this seems like a really great group.

It's a ground layer for a new nebari because the roots were horrible. I snapped a couple of pics, but not of the new roots, I accidentally pulled one off the other day when checking so I don't want to disturb them for a while.

I'd like to hear more about what you think about the tile method as well.

 

[Ray from PA]

I'd also love to see pics of your mulberry if you have any.

 

[just.wing.it]

Wait till spring to sever it.
Welcome to the Nut House!

 

[just.wing.it]

what you think about the tile method as well.

I've had good luck using the bottom of an old Tupperware container....plastic is easier to work with than tile, won't rot like wood, and the Rubbermaid brand has a slight dome shaped curve to the bottoms, perfect for Ebihara Method.

 

[Ray from PA]

Wait till spring to sever it.
Welcome to the Nut House!

Thanks, that was the way I was leaning also. I'll just cover it up really well with soil and mulch for the winter.

 

[just.wing.it]

Thanks, that was the way I was leaning also. I'll just cover it up really well with soil and mulch for the winter.

Yeah, keep an eye on it and when next years buds start swelling and greening up, but before the buds open....That's the time to chop.

 

[sorce]

This'll be good practice....
But don't get too attached before you detach!

Thing about Mulberry...
They're invasive, so no one wants em.
Birds deposit them everywhere, so you'll find em.
They grow fast, so bigger better material is out there!

Get your technique down then go hunting!

My French friend used this "bury the whole thing underground for the winter and plant it normal in spring" technique on one and it worked. Thread here somewhere, But I cant find his info.

So harvesting them should be easy.

If I were you, Id prune that bush for a good berry crop!

The tile....
Meh, Smoke uses a bonsai pot, makes a bit more sense. Kills a few birds.

All you need is a shallow pot.

As JWI said, there is better material than tile as well.

Sorce

 

[just.wing.it]

This'll be good practice....
But don't get too attached before you detach!

Thing about Mulberry...
They're invasive, so no one wants em.
Birds deposit them everywhere, so you'll find em.
They grow fast, so bigger better material is out there!

Get your technique down then go hunting!

My French friend used this "bury the whole thing underground for the winter and plant it normal in spring" technique on one and it worked. Thread here somewhere, But I cant find his info.

So harvesting them should be easy.

If I were you, Id prune that bush for a good berry crop!

The tile....
Meh, Smoke uses a bonsai pot, makes a bit more sense. Kills a few birds.

All you need is a shallow pot.

As JWI said, there is better material than tile as well.

Sorce

I too have some anchored to the bottom of the pot....that is fine certainly, as long as your flat chop doesnt block your only drainage hole.

 

[Ray from PA]

Thanks guys, really appreciate the input.

I wanted to field grow the trunk and new roots on this for a bit so I'll definitely try the old Tupperware container trick next year. I'm also working on a few clones from the same tree, so I'll have plenty of practice material. Also some honeysuckle clones from my yard too, if they ever root. I may just ground layer a branch from one of those. But I'm definitely working on a bunch of material to have next year.

In the spring I'm planning on air layering the ends of a couple of branches on my maple that are getting sawed off anyway, so I may as well get some clones from that to work with as well.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Mulberries are very good trees for bonsai. They grow fast, will stand all sorts of abuse, can be defoliated every year and reduce to a fancy leaf. Bulletproof and free, a pretty good combination.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

My mulberry is my best performing tree this year. Love it. I took a cutting from it and it seems to be holding up too. Seems bulletproof. I noticed they dont like root work done during summer grow period, so do repotting in spring like other deciduous.

I question your location of ground layer. The trunk above for what looks like two feet is straight and not interesting. I would have skipped the ground layer and air layered further up where the tree has some branching and movement. You will wind up having to regrow from a chop at the height youre layering at now.

 

[sorce]

regrow from a chop

Likely. And without quite vigilant attention, they'll grow and regrow stuff that causes bad reverse taper, at every node.
Which is why I'd make this a practice only ordeal.

I went and checked on the park one today. It was chopped at year 4-6 at 4inches across, year 2 on this new leader and it is 2 inches thick. They'll probly cut it again soon.
Without intervention its useless.

But gives an idea of what can be had.

Found another new one growing there today, these are in a row of hedge Corntoneaster, it is already an inch thick and I think it's first year.

I might get pics of mine tomorrow.

Sorce

 

[Ray from PA]

Bulletproof and free, a pretty good combination.

Yeah that was my thinking, as soon as I figured out it was a mulberry I decided to try to bonsai it

 

[Ray from PA]

My mulberry is my best performing tree this year. Love it. I took a cutting from it and it seems to be holding up too. Seems bulletproof. I noticed they dont like root work done during summer grow period, so do repotting in spring like other deciduous.

I question your location of ground layer. The trunk above for what looks like two feet is straight and not interesting. I would have skipped the ground layer and air layered further up where the tree has some branching and movement. You will wind up having to regrow from a chop at the height youre layering at now.

Good tip on the root work, thanks.

As far as the ground layer, I will chop it. My plan with this one is to grow a broom style because I've always loved the look of those. So a nice root system first, let it grow a bit and then chop the trunk. I've never tried to start a tree from the roots up before so I'm sure there's something I probably could have done better, but that's one of the reasons I signed up here.

I have cuttings from the same mulberry so I can try different things with those, and also the honeysuckle. The maple layer is what I'm working towards and trying to get serious for

 

[John P.]

I’ve used tiles with nice results. I’m going to try styrofoam next, though, as it will allow me to control the roots better using nails, staples, etc.

 

[sorce]

I went and checked on the park one today. It was chopped at year 4-6 at 4inches across, year 2 on this new leader and it is 2 inches thick. They'll probly cut it again soon.
Without intervention its useless

get pics of mine tomorrow.

My base looks almost the same as the top one only two trunks and lower branching.

Sorce

 

[Ray from PA]

Sorce is that a sacrificial branch to fatten the trunk? Or are you working on a dual trunk? Or something else? Sorry I don't know that much about field growing yet.

 

[Ray from PA]

Well my first ground layer/field grow didn't go so well, in my inexperience I let it grow without checking on the roots. Lesson learned for the three mulbs I have in training now. Anyone have an opinion on whether this can be salvaged for bonsai or is it a lost cause? It would probably end up having to be a much bigger bonsai than I prefer. Trunk diameter 10 inches and that's above that massive root.