Ponderosa Repot Detective Work

[JesseKane]

I recently purchased an established Ponderosa from a local practitioner that was down-sizing his collection. The tree is tagged to have been re-potted in 2004 (the previous owner deferred to the tag when asked), but I'm questioning if that was a marking mistake and it was instead re-potted this year. The soil is loose and well draining although it seems to be comprised of mostly fine pea gravel and organic matter. I dug down into the corner of the pot and did find some fine roots down deep but not nearly what I would expect from a tree in the same pot for 20 years. Could the organic matter be a sign that the soil has been completely broken down and is the result of old roots decaying, a sign the noted 2004 date is correct? The tree was collected in 1989 and was one of many of similar age in the collection.

The tree is currently pretty over-potted and ultimately I want to get it into a smaller pot to start working on needle reduction. Any other clues I should look for to determine when it's safe to re-pot? Pics below are the tree the day I purchased and the soil from today.

 

[BrianBay9]

Nice tree! Looks healthy. I wouldn't worry about the past, and let the tree tell you what you need to know. It certainly doesn't look like it needs a repot. Since it's new to you, I'd wait a year to decide if you want to repot and go smaller.

 

[The Barber]

Organic matter is likely from fertilization, not root rot, tree looks really healthy. Soil looks pretty fresh to me, though the grains don't look very porous, so not sure how well it will retain moisture, so I'd definitely use the chopstick method to monitor the soil moisture.

If that is one of your first bonsai, then you jumped right in the deep end. Nice pondy with lots of potential!

 

[JesseKane]

Thanks, I picked this tree partially because of the aesthetics but also because it was in good health. My plan is to care for the tree and observe for a year or two before touching anything, and part of that is the soil age mystery. Could this really be 20 year old soil? But I also suppose that the important bit is what the tree is telling me regarding its soil, not the number of years it's been in a pot.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Could this really be 20 year old soil?

Nope, the components seem modern. 20 years ago those blends weren't used a whole lot.

 

[Colorado]

I recently purchased an established Ponderosa from a local practitioner that was down-sizing his collection. The tree is tagged to have been re-potted in 2004 (the previous owner deferred to the tag when asked), but I'm questioning if that was a marking mistake and it was instead re-potted this year. The soil is loose and well draining although it seems to be comprised of mostly fine pea gravel and organic matter. I dug down into the corner of the pot and did find some fine roots down deep but not nearly what I would expect from a tree in the same pot for 20 years. Could the organic matter be a sign that the soil has been completely broken down and is the result of old roots decaying, a sign the noted 2004 date is correct? The tree was collected in 1989 and was one of many of similar age in the collection.

The tree is currently pretty over-potted and ultimately I want to get it into a smaller pot to start working on needle reduction. Any other clues I should look for to determine when it's safe to re-pot? Pics below are the tree the day I purchased and the soil from today.
View attachment 566633View attachment 566634

Welcome! Nice pondo! I don’t think it’s been in the pot for 20 years since the last repot. I’d guess it was supposed to say “2024”

If it were me, I’d probably repot it in the spring into my preferred soil mix, but I wouldn’t cut any roots this time since it was likely recently repotted. Just tease them out.

You could also leave it in there for another year while you get to know the tree.

 

[Empty Mountain]

Looks like a lot of pea gravel, that pot must be really heavy!

 

[August44]

I like that tree! You are a lucky person to find a Pondo like that and also in the health that it is in. The soil interests me, as most would use only granulated soils and very little, or no organic soils. I have seriously thought about going that direction where I live with high summer temps, and low humidity. I have looked at to many nursery trees, both conifers and deciduous that have been in a black nursery pot for a number of years in mostly organic soils, are root bound etc, and look great.

 

[pandacular]

If it were me, I’d probably repot it in the spring into my preferred soil mix, but I wouldn’t cut any roots this time since it was likely recently repotted. Just tease them out.

This would also be my approach--and to echo Brian's thoughts as well, when a tree enters my collection, I care a lot less about the history and more about the current state of the tree. Everyone has a preferred soil mix (or two), and keeping everything in the same mix makes things A LOT easier. The only trees that I have killed or are struggling are those that are in a different mix than everything else.

Denver has an excellent bonsai community. Join the club*, find a teacher, and pick the brain of Larry Jackel, the curator of the Denver Botanic Garden collection who quite literally wrote the book on ponderosa pine as bonsai.

* at the recent show, they were giving away trees for signing up, maybe you can still get in on that. see this thread for my pictures of the show.

Thread 'RMBS Exhibition, Denver, CO, Aug. 31-Sept. 1, 2024'

Aug 9, 2024

the Rocky Mountain Bonsai Society is hosting their 55th Anniversary Bonsai and Suiseki Exhibition at the Denver Botanic Gardens.

1007 York St. Denver 80206
9am - 8pm Saturday 8/31
9am - 3pm Sunday 9/1

entrance fee is included with admission to the gardens ($15)

RMBS Annual Exhibition

Annual Bonsai Show. Rocky Mountain Bonsai Society.

www.rmbonsai.org

• pandacular
• denver exhibtion rmbs show
• Replies: 10
• Forum: Events, Exhibitions, Outings & Garden Visits

• 

 

[Mats Hagström]

When in doubt go slow and make sure you and the tree get along before changing anything. If you have experience you should be fine regardless. If not find people who also have old collected pines in your area to give you guidance. I usually do nothing for one year. If the tree is vigorous I take the next step. If not I try to get it healthy first. Esp true if the tree was in a different climate.

Great Pine!!!!!

 

[JesseKane]

Welcome! Nice pondo! I don’t think it’s been in the pot for 20 years since the last repot. I’d guess it was supposed to say “2024”

If it were me, I’d probably repot it in the spring into my preferred soil mix, but I wouldn’t cut any roots this time since it was likely recently repotted. Just tease them out.

You could also leave it in there for another year while you get to know the tree.

Ah this makes sense, more of a slip pot operation with minimal root damage. I'll ponder on this over the winter and may do just that.

This would also be my approach--and to echo Brian's thoughts as well, when a tree enters my collection, I care a lot less about the history and more about the current state of the tree. Everyone has a preferred soil mix (or two), and keeping everything in the same mix makes things A LOT easier. The only trees that I have killed or are struggling are those that are in a different mix than everything else.

Denver has an excellent bonsai community. Join the club*, find a teacher, and pick the brain of Larry Jackel, the curator of the Denver Botanic Garden collection who quite literally wrote the book on ponderosa pine as bonsai.

* at the recent show, they were giving away trees for signing up, maybe you can still get in on that. see this thread for my pictures of the show.

Thread 'RMBS Exhibition, Denver, CO, Aug. 31-Sept. 1, 2024'

Aug 9, 2024

the Rocky Mountain Bonsai Society is hosting their 55th Anniversary Bonsai and Suiseki Exhibition at the Denver Botanic Gardens.

1007 York St. Denver 80206
9am - 8pm Saturday 8/31
9am - 3pm Sunday 9/1

entrance fee is included with admission to the gardens ($15)

RMBS Annual Exhibition

Annual Bonsai Show. Rocky Mountain Bonsai Society.

www.rmbonsai.org

• pandacular
• denver exhibtion rmbs show
• Replies: 10
• Forum: Events, Exhibitions, Outings & Garden Visits

• 

Already a member! Helped set up for the show this year and chatted with Larry a bit. First time attending a show and it was really incredible seeing show ready trees in person!

 

[JesseKane]

I've gleaned quite a bit more about this tree over the months. I'm now almost certain that this tree hasn't seen a repot in a long time. I hadn't dug all the way down into the soil when I first made this thread, and the bottom of the container is pretty well fully colonized with roots. The soil doesn't drain well and retains moisture for a few days between watering even during pretty hot weather. The previous owner would water the tree 3 times a week, which I imagine was helped with a pretty highly organic soil that holds as much moisture as it does. I also think that this size of pot was chosen to accommodate a narrow but long root ball. The base has some inverse taper exactly like what you see in trees growing from cracks, and I found a fairly big structural root all the way at the far right wall of the container. The tree has quite a bit of instability back to front, needing a guy wire to stop it from rocking.

The tree has obviously settled into the pot and this watering schedule. Growth has slowed down, with less than 1/4" of growth at the branch tips each of the last few years. There is some back-budding but it's minimal.

I have two goal for the next few years. First is to tweak the aesthetics with a slightly smaller pot in a different style as well as adjusting the planting angle and front. The second is to increase ramification and focus on needle length reduction. As I understand it, changing the soil to a more free-draining substrate should help revitalize the tree and is likely to encourage back-budding with the increased vigor. A smaller container will in the long run encourage needle shortening as the reduced volume restricts resources. A repot will help with all my goals and allow me to fix the rocking, so that's what I'm going to move towards first. I haven't decided if that will be this year or next.

One aspect I'd like feedback on is how sensative Ponderosas are to root reduction. Current pot is about 10"x14" and I would like to get down to around 8"x10". Is that too aggressive of a move in a single repot? I know pines are more sensitive than many deciduous, but Pondys are generally pretty vigorous and resilient.

 

[Mike Westervelt]

Ideally you want to remove as few feeder roots as possible with ponderosa, You'll just have to wait until repotting time to see if the large anchor root
can be reduced without losing many feeder roots, it may take a few cycles of chasing the roots back to achieve the pot size you are looking for.
Needle reduction is accomplished by a combination of having as many growing tips as possible(maximum health) and strength balancing via needle reduction in the strongest areas.