Pitch pine, when to style and gernal questions

[Giga]

I have a 15 year old pitch pine that is ready for the first style, I collected this on a rock outcropping at 3000ft in upstate Virginia. It was growing in decaying leafs on solid rock with one tiny root anchoring it. I was thinking of wrapping it in raffia and twisting it all the way down to the base. It would make a nice shohin, But I can't seem to find info on how to treat this guy in terms of best time to style and candle pruning n such?

older pic


base now-and it back buds everywhere-as you can see I havn't done any work this year and it still back budded everywhere-including the base

 

[edprocoat]

Are there 3 different trees in that grow box? I also could not see the backbuds, maybe you posted the wrong picture?

ed

 

[tmmason10]

Ahh now I remember the tree, you had shown the base before but I had asked for a picture of the full tree. Are those backbuds still at the base as in your second picture? I have those on one of mine and I want to try and develop those to creat shohin. I don't have enough experience yet but the plan is to gradually cut the more dominant branches back so that the sucker buds at the base take the energy. Not sure if it will work or not, but I'd say that should be your goal instead of twisting it back on top of itself.

 

[Giga]

Thanks for the replies, I'm pretty familiar with bends as I've done some crazy ones myself. I just want to make sure this time of year is ok to work on this type of pine, as I have white,black and a few other. I'm just not sure if I should treat this pine like a white or black or somewhere inbetween lol. I"ll take a better pic with a white back drop but its very healthy and grew a lot this year as that's an older pic

 

[edprocoat]

Don't water/protect from rain for a week and a half; when the top soil is dry, stick you finger in the soil - it should be a bit moist 2-3 inches deep, but not damp. The trunk and branches will feel noticeably 'rubbery'. When you've achieved these conditions its time to go!

soak raffia for 20-40 min until translucent. wrap tightly, weaving the raffia on it self as you go. Don't skimp on the raffia, this is what will keep the sap wood from bursting out the back of your bends, remember wrap tightly. Use aluminum wire, add the gauge( if using more than one wire) so that the sum of the wires you use is about 1/3 to 1/2 the trunk's diameter. The aluminum wire is more support that holding power. wire the section of trunk you wish to bend.
over wrap your work with rubber/electrical tape. now add copper wire if you have it.
you're now ready to bend.
as you add bends, keep your ear close to the trunk. ease the bend slowly, really slowly. you'll hear cracking if you going to far, but you really have to listen for it. add a bend, guy wire to hold, have a beer, work the bend a little further; repeat until you've got it where you need it. Large bends on thicker trunks could take well over an hour...
IF you hear cracking, you're done. slightly back the pressure off and let it heal til next year.

Judging from the picture, this doesn't look like the strongest tree. and the bending needs to be done close to the base...so the place your going to damage is the vein for the whole tree; so don't push it too crazy. I wouldn't wire or bend more than the bottom 12", the braches look small enough to add wire next year.

Aframe, so you are saying to leave it without water for a week and a half ? It would seem that would just about kill any tree. When does the raffia turn translucent, that means clear where one can see whats beneath it.

Giga, if you just collected the pine this year wait a full year to do any more work on it or it will die. I do know that candle pinching can only be done in the spring/early summer as that's when they appear. I would ask someone here who is familiar with pines like Brian, Victrinia or October about the best time to style these.

ed

 

[Giga]

It was collected this year but no roots were touched or cut and it grew really strong so I'm confident that work can be handled by the tree. It is also a test tree and if I lose it it's ok as I'm going back upstate this spring to collect older and larger pitch pines. I guess I should have asked if it was just double or single flush growth

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

If it was only collected this year, I'd definitely wait until next spring to start any work. Even minor movement of the roots as the top is being manipulated can be enough to break off many of this year's important, fine feeder roots. I've collected many Virginia Pines and killed them from a very healthy state by disturbing the roots during styling.

Also remember that raffia is beneficial, but can also prevent/delay necessary back-budding, so when you do start to bend, keep that in mind. Pines can handle a lot of bending before raffia is really necessary.

aframe: do you have experience with collected pines on the East coast?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I guess I should have asked if it was just double or single flush growth

Left to their own tendencies, no pines are "double flush" trees. This is important to understand. They push candles in the spring, extend needles in summer, harden off into the fall, and shed old needles in fall-winter. They will grow slowly and lazily like this if conditions are normal.

However, many pines are fast-growing enough that they can be caused to produce a second push of growth if we (or forces of nature) intervene. We have learned how to cause this by removing the tree's only intended seasonal growth at the right time of summer. If the tree is healthy, it will start over and the resulting growth will sustain the tree...no harm, no foul.

If it is weak or candle pruning is done at the wrong time, the tree will suffer, forced to spend a year photosynthezing through old, less efficient needles. It may produce some new candles, some buds, or simply sulk until the following spring, when it will send out adventitious buds along with whatever terminal buds were developed the previous fall.

Pitch pines should be strong/fast enough to produce a second flush of growth in a single growing season. I do know Virginia pines and loblolly pines are.

 

[Giga]

I understand the difference, I was referring to single or double in terms of what we do to pine as bonsai.

 

[aframe]

aframe: do you have experience with collected pines on the East coast?

Brian - Do collected eastern pitch pine fall under a different seasonal growth cycle than other collected pitch pine?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Brian - Do collected eastern pitch pine fall under a different seasonal growth cycle than other collected pitch pine?

I asked because you're advising on an East-coast species from a West coast climate, so I'm curious if you grow them out there. If so, what's your pitch pine's seasonal growth cycle like out there?

 

[Eric Group]

Left to their own tendencies, no pines are "double flush" trees. This is important to understand. They push candles in the spring, extend needles in summer, harden off into the fall, and shed old needles in fall-winter. They will grow slowly and lazily like this if conditions are normal.

However, many pines are fast-growing enough that they can be caused to produce a second push of growth if we (or forces of nature) intervene. We have learned how to cause this by removing the tree's only intended seasonal growth at the right time of summer. If the tree is healthy, it will start over and the resulting growth will sustain the tree...no harm, no foul.

If it is weak or candle pruning is done at the wrong time, the tree will suffer, forced to spend a year photosynthezing through old, less efficient needles. It may produce some new candles, some buds, or simply sulk until the following spring, when it will send out adventitious buds along with whatever terminal buds were developed the previous fall.

Pitch pines should be strong/fast enough to produce a second flush of growth in a single growing season. I do know Virginia pines and loblolly pines are.

Brian, are you currently working with any Virginia or Loblolly Pine Bonsai? Just curious- I'd love to see some pics if you are. I have each- young trees- and don't know many people working with them as Bonsai.

The Pitch Pine looks Similar to Virginia Pine, though clearly a different species. Looks like this particular tree is still young/ small enough to be bent pretty drastically without damaging it too much.

 

[aframe]

I asked because you're advising on an East-coast species from a West coast climate, so I'm curious if you grow them out there. If so, what's your pitch pine's seasonal growth cycle like out there?

BVF - your not curious, you're passive aggressive. It's amusing how people wish to carve out a name for themselves, attempting to discredit others along the way.
We're talking about a thin, boring Pitch Pine in fall; jesus just go for it - The guy said it was ready.

 

[Dav4]

Pitch pine are hard to kill...but I've done it. I was too aggressive with styling a collected pitch pine without really giving it adequate recovery time post collection...and that turned out to be probably 3 years after I dug it. If this is a recently collected tree, I definitely agree with the others who say hold off for a year or two until the tree is growing strongly before any styling or pruning...including de-candling or pinching candles. Personally, unless you're merely bending this trunk as practice, I might bother as there's really no taper to speak of. It's hard to tell from the pics, but if the base is good enough, I'd consider building the tree from one of the lowest branches there. Good luck.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I have killed more than my fair share of pines from doing too much, too soon. If you value the tree at all, get it growing well for at least one year, or two, without doing anything.

One problem I had was learning what good growth looks like. Initially I thought a few candles and a few buds was "good growth" - not true. Killed many a tree thinking it was healthy enough for training. You want to get your tree vigorous, with many, big bushy fox tails of growth. That is good vigor. Only when you have that is your tree ready for styling.

I find it useful now, for trees I consider "valuable", to grow them several years before beginning to style, to get a sense of what they can do. I want to find out what vigorous growth looks like for my tree, in my conditions.

Of course I always want to be working on something, so I found the only way to be patient was to have more trees. When in doubt, go shopping instead of torturing the tree.

When your tree is 'ready' it will be obvious.

 

[Giga]

This is true as I have around 35 trees. it put out around 3 candles per branch tip-so to me it seems to have grown very well this year. I plan on just doing a slight bend at a one point for now, to just get it going where I want it.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

BVF - your not curious, you're passive aggressive. It's amusing how people wish to carve out a name for themselves, attempting to discredit others along the way.
We're talking about a thin, boring Pitch Pine in fall; jesus just go for it - The guy said it was ready.

I have no need or desire to discredit you or anyone else; people do that for themselves when they can't support their advice with actual experience.

 

[aframe]

I have no need or desire to discredit you or anyone else.

BS. you saw my location and tried to take a childish shot at me. Man up and say "I was just trying to assert myself cause you're new around here and I felt threatened by your vast knowledge, Kimura-like Bonsai skills and striking good looks; it was unproductive. Can we still be friends?"
you'll feel better.
And yes, we can - I forgive you.

 

[Dav4]

BS. you saw my location and tried to take a childish shot at me. Man up and say "I was just trying to assert myself cause you're new around here and I felt threatened by your vast knowledge and Kimura-like Bonsai skills, it was unproductive. Can we still be friends?"
you'll feel better.
And yes, we can - I forgive you.

Did he really just say that??

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Brian, are you currently working with any Virginia or Loblolly Pine Bonsai?

Not presently. I've collected, sold, and killed quite a few Virginia pines. Jim Doyle was convinced one was a pitch pine, but I'm a bit south of its native range. Gary Wood has worked with loblolly with some very good results.

This is the last of some I collected in '07, photo taken in '11, a couple months after initial wiring. It died the following spring.