Pinyon pines

[jferrier]

I've got quite a few of these I'm growing out and a few I have collected. I love the new growth of bluish needles and the fact that their needles are naturally short, and that they seem to backbud better for me than some other pines. They also work great where I am because the are so tolerant of drought. But I've not seen many of these used for bonsai, and aside from their fairly slow growth, I'm wondering why?

 

[yenling83]

Bonsai is relatively new in the U.S. Most copy what they see in Japan and use the more traditional trees they use in Japan or they will try and find the most similar native species in the U.S. There are several trees in the US that have potential to make great Bonsai! It's people like you that have to experiment with whatever you like and create an amazing specimen. Then people will see what you did and want to use that species.

 

[milehigh_7]

Bonsai is relatively new in the U.S. Most copy what they see in Japan and use the more traditional trees they use in Japan or they will try and find the most similar native species in the U.S. There are several trees in the US that have potential to make great Bonsai! It's people like you that have to experiment with whatever you like and create an amazing specimen. Then people will see what you did and want to use that species.

Do you know which pinyon species you are growing? I am very interested in these for lots of reasons, not the least of which is that they might do ok here. I grew up in the middle of hundreds and hundreds of acres of pinyon, rmj and pondy... *sigh*

 

[Greg Brenden]

I collected some real beauties when I lived in Tucson. Brought them all up here in May 2006. They grew like mad that summer and I wondered what I needed to do to protect them during the winter. One of the "experts" in the area told me they'd do fine with no protection at all. We all want the easy solution to our problems, don't we? So I did nothing to protect them that first winter and lost them all

I share my story for those that might want to try them outside their geographical region...sure, they can tolerate heat and drought but prolonged cold, snow, ice and bitter cold, dessicating winds--no

A greenhouse is absolutely necessary for winter protection outside their geographic range unless you live in San Francisco

 

[jferrier]

I collected some real beauties when I lived in Tucson. Brought them all up here in May 2006. They grew like mad that summer and I wondered what I needed to do to protect them during the winter. One of the "experts" in the area told me they'd do fine with no protection at all. We all want the easy solution to our problems, don't we? So I did nothing to protect them that first winter and lost them all

I share my story for those that might want to try them outside their geographical region...sure, they can tolerate heat and drought but prolonged cold, snow, ice and bitter cold, dessicating winds--no

A greenhouse is absolutely necessary for winter protection outside their geographic range unless you live in San Francisco

Really? Pinyons not taking cold weather. You sure it wasn't something else. Maybe too much moisture in Oregon? These grow in areas all over New Mexico and Colorado where there are bitter cold winds and below freezing temps for weeks. I've been skiing and can see them completely buried in the snow with temps in the teens and then come spring they are growing again. Mine were frozen solid here for 3 days with temps hovering around 15 F and have not been affected.

 

[jferrier]

Do you know which pinyon species you are growing? I am very interested in these for lots of reasons, not the least of which is that they might do ok here. I grew up in the middle of hundreds and hundreds of acres of pinyon, rmj and pondy... *sigh*

I'm growing pinus edulis. Could spare some seedlings if you want some. They are 1 year old this spring so still very small. Send me a message and we'll figure something out.

 

[milehigh_7]

I collected some real beauties when I lived in Tucson. Brought them all up here in May 2006. They grew like mad that summer and I wondered what I needed to do to protect them during the winter. One of the "experts" in the area told me they'd do fine with no protection at all. We all want the easy solution to our problems, don't we? So I did nothing to protect them that first winter and lost them all

I share my story for those that might want to try them outside their geographical region...sure, they can tolerate heat and drought but prolonged cold, snow, ice and bitter cold, dessicating winds--no

A greenhouse is absolutely necessary for winter protection outside their geographic range unless you live in San Francisco

Uh Greg, I grew up at about 7000 feet in Colorado, temps in my town routinely get -20 and sometimes stay that way for weeks. Sometimes feet of snow. Pinyon do fine and are native in the same places as ponderosa and rmj.

 

[mrchips1952]

Pinon Pines

I also am from Colorado and Pinons do fine at up to 9500 feet if I am not mistaken.

 

[rockm]

I suspect since they're used to frozen precip and dry, alpinish conditions, that the constant wet winter in Washington state did them in. Heavy rain is the worst in the winter--especially for trees used to arid climates. Snow and ice releases moisture relatively slowly, so it drains away, but heavy rain inundates pots and leaves soil soggy for weeks or even months rotting roots. Native soil on root masses can multiply the sogginess...

The same thing happens in this area with collected Cal. Junipers. Although those trees are tough as nails in their native climates, the humidity and wet climate here in the east kills them.

 

[milehigh_7]

I also am from Colorado and Pinons do fine at up to 9500 feet if I am not mistaken.

Never seen em in the sub alpine zone but just below that yea... Just below where you find the spruce and fir. Then again you might be right, I am remembering driving to my father in law's place south west of Canyon City and there is spruce in the shady parts of this canyon but when you come through it you are back to RMJ, Pondy and Pinyon.

 

[jferrier]

I've searched everywhere online looking for a good example of a pinyon bonsai, and found one that was ok but nothing that made me say "wow!" The very first tree I got when I started my interest in bonsai over 6 years ago was a pinyon that a friend dug for me in New Mexico. It sure has been slow growing, but even with a mere 1/2" diameter trunk and many many years from being anything worth looking at , its still my favorite. It has lasted through what many other trees have not.

 

[waltr1]

I have had a Pinyon for two years now. This was collected by the guys at Oregon Bonsai about 4 years ago.
So far it has done quite well here in the east. Only trouble has been Pine Tip bores.

Here it is after its first styling.

 

[Greg Brenden]

Really? Pinyons not taking cold weather. You sure it wasn't something else. Maybe too much moisture in Oregon? These grow in areas all over New Mexico and Colorado where there are bitter cold winds and below freezing temps for weeks. I've been skiing and can see them completely buried in the snow with temps in the teens and then come spring they are growing again. Mine were frozen solid here for 3 days with temps hovering around 15 F and have not been affected.

I forgot about this thread until someone brought it up again recently. The species of pinyon I was referring to is Pinus cembroides--Mexican Pinyon, a three needle pine that occurs at 2,500' to 7,500' in southeast Arizona. While I think the rain we get here didn't help the situation, I was living in Hood River which gets much less rainfall than Portland does even though it's only 60 miles east on the Columbia River. The Mexican Pinyon does receive some cold temperatures in its native habitat but not extended cold like Hood River, which is 1,600 miles further north in latitude. Believe me, they went from having fairly mild winters in their native zone to a place that gets much colder and stays that way far longer. My point about having a green house gives the advantage of keeping the wind off the tree, keeping the rain off the tree and some protection from cold. It was mentioned some have seen them buried in snow. Snow is very beneficial in keeping trees protected because it acts like an insulator. The problem I found in Hood River was that it would snow, then rain and that would partially melt the snow so that it would no longer cover branches and needles. Then that would freeze and form a crust of ice. These are just not the kind of conditions that occurred where this species was collected.

Again, I say, if I had green housed them that first winter and every winter thereafter, I think I would still have them around

 

[Dwight]

I lost my two needle pinon this winter and I'm in the middle of it's range. We had a freak freeze of -1 and almost everything bought it. In March I was on a dig just east of Albuquerque and there were a nunmer of dead pinons where we were that had obviously died recently. The owner of the land said that it had reached -7 there ( same night as our freeze ) and lots of pondies had died too. These guys both like a rest period and anything above 15 doesn't seem to bother them in our area but -7 sure did.

Greg , does it get below 0 there ?

 

[Greg Brenden]

I lost my two needle pinon this winter and I'm in the middle of it's range. We had a freak freeze of -1 and almost everything bought it. In March I was on a dig just east of Albuquerque and there were a nunmer of dead pinons where we were that had obviously died recently. The owner of the land said that it had reached -7 there ( same night as our freeze ) and lots of pondies had died too. These guys both like a rest period and anything above 15 doesn't seem to bother them in our area but -7 sure did.

Greg , does it get below 0 there ?

I've only been in Oregon since 2006--3 yrs. in Hood River, where it got to single digits but never below zero, although I'm sure there may be temps that low in the records. Here in Portland I've seen it as cold a 15* along with east winds out of the Columbia River Gorge for over a week on and off. That certainly justifies some kind of winter protection. Generally speaking, winter here is more like "refrigerator" weather--45* and steady drizzle.

I'm sorry to hear you lost trees. I'll say again that a greenhouse is a must if you want to be certain about wintering small to medium size trees. I have a small unheated greenhouse for the little guys and the big ones spend the winter parked on the ground. The ones in wooden grow boxes do o.k. on the ground outside against a fence for protection from the wind. But the ones that are in shallow bonsai pots get greenhoused. Hope this helps.

 

[buffrider]

so is the any information on how to care for these anywhere? I just got one at tonights club meeting.

 

[Ryan820]

I'm reviving this thread because Im currently air layering a pinyon on my property... These pines tend to take on a smaller, squatter tree or bush...I have yet to see one growing big like a pondy... Anyway, I believe I have callusing going on with my air layer... Hope to see roots before long!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I suspect too wet in winter is a problem for these. I have a few young seedlingss of P. Edulis, I'll give them the same winter protection I give my JBP. I want to get some P monophylla, it is supposed to be even more cold tolerant than edulis.

There may be different genetics influencing cold tolerance. There is a west Texas sub-species that is not cold tolerant. For cold tolerance, try to get plants or seed from Colorado, or other areas in the north of pinyon range.Most books currently say the USA only has 2 species of pinyon, but I think once the genetic studies are finished, we will have at least 4 maybe 6. Details are sketchy, they all look alike except the one needle pinyon. I could not tell them apart.

I do think the pinyon is a good bonsAi candidate. Let us know your experiences.

i hate fighting auto correct.

 

[MMJNICE]

I forgot about this thread until someone brought it up again recently. The species of pinyon I was referring to is Pinus cembroides--Mexican Pinyon, a three needle pine that occurs at 2,500' to 7,500' in southeast Arizona. While I think the rain we get here didn't help the situation, I was living in Hood River which gets much less rainfall than Portland does even though it's only 60 miles east on the Columbia River. The Mexican Pinyon does receive some cold temperatures in its native habitat but not extended cold like Hood River, which is 1,600 miles further north in latitude. Believe me, they went from having fairly mild winters in their native zone to a place that gets much colder and stays that way far longer. My point about having a green house gives the advantage of keeping the wind off the tree, keeping the rain off the tree and some protection from cold. It was mentioned some have seen them buried in snow. Snow is very beneficial in keeping trees protected because it acts like an insulator. The problem I found in Hood River was that it would snow, then rain and that would partially melt the snow so that it would no longer cover branches and needles. Then that would freeze and form a crust of ice. These are just not the kind of conditions that occurred where this species was collected.

Again, I say, if I had green housed them that first winter and every winter thereafter, I think I would still have them around

I know this is such an old post but about the natural habitat of the pinyon.. I recently bought 5 acres of land in Southern Colorado. When i say recently i mean 4 years ago lol... time sure flies don't it....The elevation sits just below 7000 feet above sea level and I have tons of pinyon trees on my property. The temperature regularly drops way below -0 at nigh and my trees experience negative temperatures for days at the elevation. My point is that the cold isn't the problem. I don't think any Species of tree or plant no matter how cold hardy they are can survive in a little pot on top a table with repeated freeze-thaw cycles along with no protection from below zero winds whipping across they're roots and Foliage.. sure you may get lucky but but your punishment could be severe if you don't protect your bonsai from the elements for long. Of course a bonsai is nothing like a tree planted in the ground when it comes to hardiness. I'm sure that all parties in this conversation have figured this out by now but my Comment is really for this person reading about how to winter there most likely yamadori pinion. A dry place that doesn't get wind exposure and still gets sunlight should be Sufficient to protect your pinyon pine trees unless you live in the Arctic Circle lol. I would think in a dry shallow basement window well if you have one would work perfectly to over winter your pine trees.

 

[Emanon]

[...] The elevation sits just below 7000 feet above sea level and I have tons of pinyon trees on my property. The temperature regularly drops way below -0 at nigh and my trees experience negative temperatures for days at the elevation. My point is that the cold isn't the problem. [...]

I suppose it matter what species of pinyon pines you are talking about. I first took notice of pinyon pines while rock climbing at Joshua Tree (Mojave and Colorado deserts). The Pinyon species there of course being Pinus monophylla (single needle). Winters there are relatively warm still but it does snow at higher elevations? The pines are found maybe 4000 feet lower than your place. I'm growing some out here in San Diego (where there is no winter to speak of) along with a Muller Oak (Quercus cornelius-mulleri) and so far so good (fingers crossed)...