Pines With the Shortest Needles

MichaelS

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"TomB, Not sure why this would be the case - I know that people collect Scots pines / Pinus sylvestris in Sweden.

Because if you wanted named dwarf cultivars that were not available in Sweden you would need to import them if you wanted them.
The original question was about pines with the shortest needles, not pines in which you can shorten needles.

Eg: this is ''Jeremy'' with normal needle length

psj.PNG
 
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Vance Wood

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Because if you wanted named dwarf cultivars that were not available in Sweden you would need to import them if you wanted them.
The original question was about pines with the shortest needles, not pines in which you can shorten needles.

Eg: this is ''Jeremy'' with normal needle length

View attachment 112929
I don't understand why you would point out the flaws of mentioning Pines with needle lengths that can be shortened or cultivars not available and then mention Spruce which is of course not a Pine at all.
 

MichaelS

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I don't understand why you would point out the flaws of mentioning Pines with needle lengths that can be shortened or cultivars not available and then mention Spruce which is of course not a Pine at all.
You really need to concentrate more Vance. I did not say anything about leaf size reduction in pines as being a flaw. (if that's what the hell you're talking about) or is it that ''pointing out'' that mentioning needle reduction was a flaw? because I didn't do that either (if that's what the hell your on about, and I never mentioned spruces at all! Wow.....
One more time.....The question was "What cold hardy pines have the SHOREST needles'' Answer; If you want cold hardy pines with short (very short) needles then consider some dwarf Scots cultivars. I mentioned 2 which I have had experience with.
The question was NOT ''what species of pine will end up with the shortest needles through bonsai techniques''
 
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Adair M

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You really need to concentrate more Vance. I did not say anything about leaf size reduction in pines as being a flaw. (if that's what the hell you're talking about) or is it that ''pointing out'' that mentioning needle reduction was a flaw? because I didn't do that either (if that's what the hell your on about, and I never mentioned spruces at all! Wow.....
One more time.....The question was "What cold hardy pines have the SHOREST needles'' Answer; If you want cold hardy pines with short (very short) needles then consider some dwarf Scots cultivars. I mentioned 2 which I have had experience with.
The question was NOT ''what species of pine will end up with the shortest needles through bonsai techniques''
Calm down, Michael.

Look at my post earlier, and TobiasB's response. As it turns out, he was asking for pines where you can shorten needle length. Lots of people new to the hobby don't know how to shorten needles so they choose to work with pines with naturally short needles.
 

MichaelS

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Calm down, Michael.

Look at my post earlier, and TobiasB's response. As it turns out, he was asking for pines where you can shorten needle length. Lots of people new to the hobby don't know how to shorten needles so they choose to work with pines with naturally short needles.
I'm completely calm Adair - almost asleep. But I was referring to Vance's ridiculous and confused response to mine. As for Tobias's response to your post, it seems you are a better mind reader than me! As it turns out he never once asked about pines where you can shorten needle length.
I think some folks (including yourself in this instance) read one thing without understanding what the words actually mean in the literal sense. But that's ok I'll try to think around that.
 
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Adair M

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I'm completely calm Adair - almost asleep. But I was referring to Vance's ridiculous and confused response to mine. As for Tobias's response to your post, it seems you are a better mind reader than me! As it turns out he never once asked about pines where you can shorten needle length.
I think some folks (including yourself in this instance) read one thing without understanding what the words actually mean in the literal sense. But that's ok I'll try to think around that.

Well... Let's just say I've been around novice bonsai people a long time. And often when they ask a question like that, they really don't have enough bonsai experience to ask the "right" question.

If I took the question literally, I might have answered that in my experience Zuisho Japanese White Pine has the shortest naturally occurring needles, but that's hardly a cultivar I'd recommend to a beginner.

So, I thought I'd provide him some more insight into pines suitable for bonsai in his location.
 

MichaelS

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Well... Let's just say I've been around novice bonsai people a long time. And often when they ask a question like that, they really don't have enough bonsai experience to ask the "right" question.

If I took the question literally, I might have answered that in my experience Zuisho Japanese White Pine has the shortest naturally occurring needles, but that's hardly a cultivar I'd recommend to a beginner.

So, I thought I'd provide him some more insight into pines suitable for bonsai in his location.
Fair enough..
 

M. Frary

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The dwarf scots pines are alright. But they are slow. Why mess around with those when a regular scots pine needle reduces naturally in bonsai culture.
They're like the elm of the pine world. Just by cutting them back and growing more branches reduces needle length.
I had 20 young ones in front of me all day yesterday. Regular scots. Young healthy ones. No shoot cutting done to them and the needles were short. A couple under an inch just because they were in buckets.
Go with tegular scots, they are easier to find and are cheaper to buy to boot.
 

MichaelS

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The dwarf scots pines are alright. But they are slow. Why mess around with those when a regular scots pine needle reduces naturally in bonsai culture.
They're like the elm of the pine world. Just by cutting them back and growing more branches reduces needle length.
I had 20 young ones in front of me all day yesterday. Regular scots. Young healthy ones. No shoot cutting done to them and the needles were short. A couple under an inch just because they were in buckets.
Go with tegular scots, they are easier to find and are cheaper to buy to boot.
All true. But why not do both if you can? I have a few seed grown scots pines and I love them, and I also have a bunch of ''saxatilis'' which will make supremely good shohin. Their needles START at about 1'' rather than about 2'' for regular sylvestris. That means if you can get the regular species to reduce down to 1'' or less, you will be able to get the dwarf down to 1/2 inch or less which makes it easier to get the right scale in very small trees. BTW they are much better for bonsai than for example yatsubusa Black pine which really too difficult to manage in a small tree.
 

Adair M

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I don't care for yatsubusa JBP. Especially for small bonsai. Regular JBP are much better.

As I posted earlier, you can make JBP needles any length you want.

image.jpeg

image.jpeg
 

Adair M

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Well they certainly are short!
Yes, too short!

I decandled earlier the next year. So, the tree now looked like:

image.jpeg

There, they are 5/8 to 3/4 inch long.

That picture was taken just after decandling. To give an apples to apples comparison to the one with the super short needles. Sorry, I don't have a close up.

Here is what it looked like prior to the latest decandling:

image.jpeg

It's putting on its summer candles now. I should get twice as many new shoots as the "before decandling" picture, but shorter candles and needles of about 3/4 inch.

That tree is about 100 years old, by the way.
 

Vance Wood

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The truth of the matter in my view is having needle size that is first proportional and second; manageable. The idea is not always to force really short needles and then try to design around having needles of that length if in the end, the accomplishment of some sort of success at this level is a one time event. If the needle length is the chief goal of your bonsai work it is possible that the style goals are suffering. To me, the style of the tree should fit the length of the needles produced by standard care and practice for this particular tree. If you can get short needles on a particular tree and the tree is healthy and the length of needles with your work is consistent and reproducible then go for it. However if you are trying to make a Shohin bonsai out of a Eastern White Pine without having to physically cut the length of the needles to show the tree, you are probably stressing out the tree to the point of danger.
 

Adair M

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The truth of the matter in my view is having needle size that is first proportional and second; manageable. The idea is not always to force really short needles and then try to design around having needles of that length if in the end, the accomplishment of some sort of success at this level is a one time event. If the needle length is the chief goal of your bonsai work it is possible that the style goals are suffering. To me, the style of the tree should fit the length of the needles produced by standard care and practice for this particular tree. If you can get short needles on a particular tree and the tree is healthy and the length of needles with your work is consistent and reproducible then go for it. However if you are trying to make a Shohin bonsai out of a Eastern White Pine without having to physically cut the length of the needles to show the tree, you are probably stressing out the tree to the point of danger.
I agree with that, Vance.

With JBP you can pretty much dictate needle length by timing the decandling date. The later in the summer, the shorter the summer candle due to the short remaining growing season before frost.

I don't like yatsubusa JBP for shohin because the stems grow thick. Even though you get short needles and short internodes, the fat twigs destroy the scale.
 
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