Patina on American Pots

[A Random User]

I think you mean "fake" not "obtain".

I think the goal is to make real patina not fake patina. There are plenty of pots around with very old patina. The difference is easy to spot.

Since no one here can conclusively say what the patina is the point seems moot.

If you have it great. If you don't I guess that great too. I have not sleep because my pots don't have patina. Course I'm not paying $35,000.00 dollars for one either.

Hummm...
Seems to me that I am adding "Patina" to my trees all the time...

I wire branches down, round off pointy apex's, work on establishing massive nebari,
I kill off live branches to create deadwood... establish shari's, carve dead wood, and lime sulpher it... all to create an "illusion" of being something that it's not... and that's "Old".

My tree didn't "Obtain" any of this patina... I faked it.
Is it easy to spot ??? Perhaps... but, isn't this the game that we all are playing ???
Aren't we all just basically forgers... trying to copy or produce imitations of real tree's
that we either see or imagine to exist ???

So, adding age to a tree is OK, but to a pot is not ???

Patina... is the appearance of age, plain and simple.

Sometimes things can be really old, but yet have no appearance of age...
Like when an item has been well care for...
Other times things can be rather new, but have lived a hard life, and resemble
something very ancient.

 

[jkd2572]

I think there is a disconnect or difference on what is considered as "patina" here.

I scrub the fertilizer deposits off yearly. Am I doing something wrong. I can sell you the pots if you want. real ugly mineral deposits if that's your thing. I would still like a good explanation of patina as I think it's a made up term for dirty sounding expensive.

 

[A Random User]

So you were able to research and post eight articles describing fake patina, but couldn't post pictures of your own pots?

I clicked a few but am not going to spend time reading through them. I appreciate you posting them but bottom line, good looking real patina takes time to develop and there is no substitute.

Smoke, you're right this thread is going nowhere and apparently no one cares about the lack of American pots with patina. I appreciate the contributions, but lets let the poor bastard die.

Sorry...
Seeing that it is currently 1:00 in the morning...
I didn't feel the need to run outside in my Boxers to
dig out pots to photograph them...

I would like to say though, that I started my discussion in your
ridiculous post to try and actually add some sort of an actual educational
element... where folks might be able to pick up some actual useful info,
that they might even be able to put to some sort of use.

You stated that American Pots don't have patina, and that patina makes
a pot look better, therefore making a tree look better...

OK... so, what is your point ???
Are we suppose to feel sorry for ourselves ???
Sit around just talking about nothing ???
Or try an come up with a solution ???

 

[jkd2572]

But I do like the animation of beating a dead horse. And still like clean pots.

 

[Anthony]

Yes, yes, I know dead horse yadda,yadda, yadda,

BUT the point remains, this patina situation, feels like another one of those Japanese wannahbe situations.

Stoneware was meant to be an improvement over earthenware, as porcelain is the king of pottery.Meant to last. Meant to be used. Meant to be washed/cleaned.
I was not aware that soil/fertiliser contained hydrofluoric acid.

If you want ornaments, buy vases, or teacups, or sculpture. ha ha too expensive, so you try to elevate pots to that status, get good resale value. Sort of that wabi/sabi crap, I can't afford a decent yard, so I create a philosophy, to hide my poverty, to see the universe in a grain of sand.[ you need proof see the statement on IBC made by R.Coker, reporting on the discussion by Japanese Architects.]

This the problem with this hobby,the trees are all that are important, the pot is just a container.You see the tree, not the pot.

This will become obvious when someone walks up to your 15/20 years of work and says-
"Hey, really nice pot!"

There is also something to be said, when a potter makes a pot and says, you can have it, just don't put any trees in it [ see Bonsai Today ].
Good Morning
Anthony

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Good Peter Tea post on the subject from a couple years ago...
http://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/2011/08/28/pots-and-patina/

 

[Anthony]

Brian,

thank you for the read. Before I say anything, as I wrote to you in the p.m. I like your trees, and respect you as talented Bonsai-st.

BUT eww wee, that is just nasty!! Dirt on a pot and then later rubbing it with a drying oil or mineral oil or wax, yuccky!

This is why I take my time and choose my pots, for shape, colour, dither [ how warped and if usable ] and keep then cleaned when exhibiting.
Patina on Bronze is natural and can actually add charm.
Dirt on pots? For exhibiting ? That's high class rudeness to the hands that made the shape.
Good Morning
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

Oh yes, and the cheaper the pot or glaze [ never mind it might cost ] the closer the body or glaze will get to visual quality of plastic.

The dirt or stuff growing on the exterior would break up or hide the somewhat uniform colour and make it more pleasant to the eye.
Good Morning
Anthony

 

[Poink88]

Good Peter Tea post on the subject from a couple years ago...
http://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/2011/08/28/pots-and-patina/

Good article and lots of good info BUT with a few mistakes on his assumption also. Hint: water flowing at crevices.

Anyone visit old churches? Most walls, doors, and columns on those have patina. Gross dirt but yes real patina. No water flowing... just rubbing, contact with dirty & oily skin. It is the raised parts on ornately carved ones that comes in contact with the skin (on plain surface, it is everything) that gets the most patina.

If you observe also at what height where the patina is...most are intense around 3-6 feet height and tapering as you go up or down from there. Almost zero above 8 feet.

 

[Emrys]

I think there is a disconnect or difference on what is considered as "patina" here.

Right!!! I don't mean to underestimate any members knowleg base here but patina in the true definition has to do with oxidation of ferrous and non ferrouse metals. Glass will never patina. Glazes are essentially glass. Ceramic bodies generally don't have much metal in them and the little that does exist is usualy in the form of red irion oxide wich is essential already oxidized. The red color of many of the unglazed pots that have been posted comes from red iron oxide in the clay body. Most of what you all are bickering over on the old unglazed pots is most likely oil and dirt that has been rubbed into the pourouse body by many years of handling. This too could be the reason for it not existing under the soil leval. Things can acquire a "patina" of age no dought and these things do exhibit another true definition of patina, one that was derived from the original definition described above but is technicaly not a true patina.

 

[Emrys]

Good article and lots of good info BUT with a few mistakes on his assumption also. Hint: water flowing at crevices.

Anyone visit old churches? Most walls, doors, and columns on those have patina. Gross dirt but yes real patina. No water flowing... just rubbing, contact with dirty & oily skin. It is the raised parts on ornately carved ones that comes in contact with the skin (on plain surface, it is everything) that gets the most patina.

If you observe also at what height where the patina is...most are intense around 3-6 feet height and tapering as you go up or down from there. Almost zero above 8 feet.

Sorry I didn't see this befor I posted. What he said!!! We also have a lot of salts and acid in the oil that we have on our hands. This is also a contributing factor to the patina given to clay and stone over years of handling. So I revise my position a bit in that there is likely a slow chemical re action going on within the clay body. But mostly it's just dirt.

 

[Smoke]

Right!!! I don't mean to underestimate any members knowleg base here but patina in the true definition has to do with oxidation of ferrous and non ferrouse metals. Glass will never patina. Glazes are essentially glass. Ceramic bodies generally don't have much metal in them and the little that does exist is usualy in the form of red irion oxide wich is essential already oxidized. The red color of many of the unglazed pots that have been posted comes from red iron oxide in the clay body. Most of what you all are bickering over on the old unglazed pots is most likely oil and dirt that has been rubbed into the pourouse body by many years of handling. This too could be the reason for it not existing under the soil leval. Things can acquire a "patina" of age no dought and these things do exhibit another true definition of patina, one that was derived from the original definition described above but is technicaly not a true patina.

Like another thread patina can be used as a noun and a verb.
True patina exists on my coins.
Dirty pots have the patina of age.

 

[Smoke]

Hummm...
Seems to me that I am adding "Patina" to my trees all the time...

I wire branches down, round off pointy apex's, work on establishing massive nebari,
I kill off live branches to create deadwood... establish shari's, carve dead wood, and lime sulpher it... all to create an "illusion" of being something that it's not... and that's "Old".

My tree didn't "Obtain" any of this patina... I faked it.
Is it easy to spot ??? Perhaps... but, isn't this the game that we all are playing ???
Aren't we all just basically forgers... trying to copy or produce imitations of real tree's
that we either see or imagine to exist ???

So, adding age to a tree is OK, but to a pot is not ???

Patina... is the appearance of age, plain and simple.

Sometimes things can be really old, but yet have no appearance of age...
Like when an item has been well care for...
Other times things can be rather new, but have lived a hard life, and resemble
something very ancient.

No, you are faking patina, nature will improve it with time.

 

[Emrys]

Like another thread patina can be used as a noun and a verb.
True patina exists on my coins.
Dirty pots have the patina of age.

That response could have solved this issue 8 pages ago! Thanks for being so concise. A forum skill I need to learn I guess.

 

[nathanbs]

again i will mention pollution. Pollution/fallout contains a lot of ferrous and non ferrous metals that accumulate on everything including the outside of your bonsai pots. Additionally i would assume that iron, manganese and other minerals in the soil and fertilizer oxidize as well. Anthony sorry but if you think bonsai is only about the trees you need to go back to Page 1 in your bonsai handbook as its about the overall presentation

 

[nathanbs]

Call it ewww icky dirty all you want. I like it! I would hate to hear what you guys think about when they pull a million dollar car out of a garage after its been there for decades and dont even wash it

 

[Anthony]

Ah Nathan,

then we shall have to agree to differ. No sweat.
Good Evening.
Anthony