Orchid bark..

fredman

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I'm picking up 3 bags from a orchid guy this week. Soil this spring will be pumice/bark/zeolite.
The guy said (on the phone) they (the orchid people) soak the bark in a lime silution to extract the tannins. I've never heard of such. For bonsai purposes..is that good/bad or unnecessary?
Thanks.
 
Hmm... my wife raises orchids and she soaks her bark in water (not lime though) over night too. She says tannins are part of the deal. but that it’s more about getting the media well soaked when she plants orchids in it.
@leo raises orchids, maybe he will have time to help here too.
cheers
DSD sends
 
Yeah i'm almost sure I heard lime water. He just mentioned it. We didn't discuss it. Only afterwards I started thinking about it.
I think you linked the wrong Leo...or maybe not. Ah well what the. Let's get them all in here... 🤪
@Leo in N E Illinois
 
I'm picking up 3 bags from a orchid guy this week. Soil this spring will be pumice/bark/zeolite.
The guy said (on the phone) they (the orchid people) soak the bark in a lime silution to extract the tannins. I've never heard of such. For bonsai purposes..is that good/bad or unnecessary?
Thanks.
It is interesting topic.
Your intended soil components is sounding good!
I have been using orchid bark seedlings for over 10 years and never soaked it into anything prior to soil mixing! It works very well for my trees and they seems very happy! Tannins is actually giving the benefits to the trees due to its antibacterial, antiparasites and antioxidant effects. @Wires_Guy_wires : what is your opinion ? Thanks
Thụ Thoại

P/s: i bought one bag of Orchiata made in New Zealand over 10 years ago, but it is too expensive! Later on, I found orchid bark seedling made in California, which is much cheaper 😊
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I emailed him for about it. Waiting to hear. My thinking is to get the Ph to around 6.0.
Maybe he uses a dolomite silution to get calcium and magnesium into the bark...
 
It is interesting topic.
Your intended soil components is sounding good!
I have been using orchid bark seedlings for over 10 years and never soaked it into anything prior to soil mixing! It works very well for my trees and they seems very happy! Tannins is actually giving the benefits to the trees due to its antibacterial, antiparasites and antioxidant effects. @Wires_Guy_wires : what is your opinion ? Thanks
Thụ Thoại

P/s: i bought one bag of Orchiata made in New Zealand over 10 years ago, but it is too expensive! Later on, I found orchid bark seedling made in California, which is much cheaper 😊
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Tannin is a common name for something like 'liquid extracts from plant material'. They can be both good and bad, depending on the origin and the concentration. The tannins from oak leaves and bark can be used to preserve leather, tannins from coffee give it the dark color and can work as an insecticide but also as a weed killer. Phenols from pomegranate have shown to be degraded by our gut flora into compounds that seem to have a positive effect on mitochondria, extending their lifecycle. It's still a matter of investigation though.
In general, I think that tannins from fresh material could have negative effects. The carbon molecules (mostly phenols and/or aromatic compounds) inside them are usually signalling molecules that tell surrounding plants and surrounding microbes that a tree is injured or dying. Phenols are short lived though, and they oxidize pretty fast.
So if the bark is cured/dried for a couple weeks or months, then most of the negative materials have been broken down. Of course, the bark on the outside of trees has been washed by the rain multiple times and exposed to sunlight and air for so long that I think the curing isn't even necessary.
If the bark is sterilized or pasteurized, which is the case in most pet store bark, most of those aromatic compounds are long gone. I ruined an autoclave once by trying to autoclave pine wood; the insides of the steam vessel were covered in dark sticky material that smelled like barbecue. I know for a fact that the smokey flavor in hotdogs and other food products comes from stuff like that (over here known as 'smoke extract'). It can be highly flammable and even explosive if it contains too much nitrogen, which happens when fresh wood is used.

I believe bark in a bag is sufficiently cured and dried to use in our soil. If the negative effects would be big enough to notice, I think we would've heard more about it.
In the case of growing orchids, where seeds need to be inoculated with bacteria and fungi (from the mother plant) to germinate and live, I can see why the bark needs to be treated; seeds don't germinate well in the presence of some aromatic compounds and if the tannins have an antibacterial or antifungal function, then the inoculation could not be successful. Orchid seeds don't store starches and sugars like most other seeds, so orchids actually rely on symbiotic fungi to give them a chance at life. If those fungi can't live due to the tannins, then the seeds can't live either. In the case of germinating orchids, I think it's a good idea to treat the bark if it's not treated already. Most plants that life in forests however, can deal with pretty high amounts of tannins. Just have a look at the water color of the Amazon river; it's mostly tannins, and life thrives over there.
 
Well he answered me. This is what he says...

"With Orchids the roots don’t cling to the raw bark and by soaking the raw bark in Dolomite lime, a cup to the 40ltr bags helps this process and the newly re potted orchid is not shocked from the re potting process and helps with the bark absorbing moisture. Bark absorbs Nitrogen from the fertilising of the plants and we flush every month to leach that out of the Bark. Also if we recycle the old non broken down bark, we repeat the Dolomite Lime treatment"
 
Hey @fredman, reading through this thread I’m wondering what the issue is that you are trying to solve.

I think adding orchid bark is a great, albeit a mite expensive idea.

I was just doing volunteer pruning work at Elandan Gardens. Its owner, Dan Robinson, told me he always uses an equal mix of fir bark, pumice and lava rock for all his bonsai and has never repotted his bonsai, ever. (I asked twice.). He doesn’t treat or sift the bark at all. See some of his awesome bonsai below.

So if you are planting orchids, it seems this is an ok treatment, although the AOS does say that not treating orchid bark works fine too.

If you are trying to establish a good environment for acid loving (pH 4.5-6) azaleas, for example, why spend time bathing your media in lime water, which has a pH of about 12.4?“ (Not that it would have a substantial effect on driving the pH up much, if at all.).

Wondering 😉
DSD sends
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Are you using the bark for orchids or for regular trees?
Orchids are usually grown in 100% bark whereas our bonsai soils contain small amounts of bark. I think there's a huge nuance in that. Physiologically, the roots are very different. Orchids produce more or less passive air roots that act like a sponge, trees produce more or less active hairy roots that act more like a pump system.
If you wet the bark prior to making a soil mix, you'll get less splinters as well as help it with absorbing moisture. The repot shock in our trees is present no matter what soils we put them in.
 
I’m wondering what the issue is that you are trying to solve.
Nah no issue mate. Just thought it interesting and wondered why he does that. I've always used composted bark. Thought fresh bark might be different. I'll be using kanuma for the azaleas.
 
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Are you using the bark for orchids or for regular trees?
Orchids are usually grown in 100% bark whereas our bonsai soils contain small amounts of bark. I think there's a huge nuance in that. Physiologically, the roots are very different. Orchids produce more or less passive air roots that act like a sponge, trees produce more or less active hairy roots that act more like a pump system.
If you wet the bark prior to making a soil mix, you'll get less splinters as well as help it with absorbing moisture. The repot shock in our trees is present no matter what soils we put them in.
As I said above i'm going to use it as part of the mix...pumice/zeolite and the bark. TBH I am a bit concerned the fresh bark might lock up N in the mix....? I'll only use 10% and adding N.
 
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So if you are planting orchids, it seems this is an ok treatment, although the AOS does say that not treating orchid bark works fine too.

If you are trying to establish a good environment for acid loving (pH 4.5-6) azaleas, for example, why spend time bathing your media in lime water, which has a pH of about 12.4?“ (Not that it would have a substantial effect on driving the pH up much, if at all.).
I see in your link they talk about adding dolomite to. I actually always did that in the past when I used composted bark as a fraction in my mix. I added half a handful dolomite to a wheelbarrow of bonsai mix and leave it for a few weeks to stew.
It adds calcium/magnesium and raises the Ph to 6.0 max. Ideal for most trees.
 
As I said above i'm going to use it as part of the mix...pumice/zeolite and the bark. TBH I am a bit concerned the fresh bark might lock up N in the mix....? I'll only use 10% and adding N.
Ah, I missed that.
What happens with that N after it's locked up? When the bark starts degrading?
Bark is a fibrous material and it locks as much as it secretes due to that structure. See it like a straw, it's hollow and it can hold water and nutrients. But if you put water in one end, water will fall out at the other end once it's filled. Same goes with nutrients. A tube with open ends on both sides, doesn't hold anything for long. Unless one side is plugged, but then it wouldn't take up much either.

Sure, in the first weeks it might be a nitrogen sink, but after a while it becomes a source. The net result is 0.

The best example I can give you is carbon filters. They work the same way as bark does: hollow carbon fibers trap chemicals at first, but once they're saturated they'll start leaking as much as they take up. That's why their shelf life is limited, especially when exposed to air, and so is their time of use. Carbon filters start filtering air even if there is no mechanical air movement, it's a concentration gradient thing; one end is releasing filtered air, but the pulling force of that filtered air being released draws in unfiltered air on the other side of the tube.

We assume that bark is depleted of nutrients, but the air is filled with NOx molecules and I don't believe rain water is so devoid of nutrients that bark loses more than it can take up. So bark being a N-catcher would mean it's been growing in completely sterile filtered air OR that all hollow tubes of the bark have been closed off for its entire lifespan, until it's blended in our bonsai soil. Which defies pretty much all logic to me.
There was a discussion a while back about it, and I'm doing trials with grass growing on bark mix vs. regular soil. There's not much difference other than the fact that bark holds water better than regular soil. I'm not seeing any signs of deficiencies. So all things considered, I think the effect is minimal.
 
Ah, I missed that.
What happens with that N after it's locked up? When the bark starts degrading?
Bark is a fibrous material and it locks as much as it secretes due to that structure. See it like a straw, it's hollow and it can hold water and nutrients. But if you put water in one end, water will fall out at the other end once it's filled. Same goes with nutrients. A tube with open ends on both sides, doesn't hold anything for long. Unless one side is plugged, but then it wouldn't take up much either.

Sure, in the first weeks it might be a nitrogen sink, but after a while it becomes a source. The net result is 0.

The best example I can give you is carbon filters. They work the same way as bark does: hollow carbon fibers trap chemicals at first, but once they're saturated they'll start leaking as much as they take up. That's why their shelf life is limited, especially when exposed to air, and so is their time of use. Carbon filters start filtering air even if there is no mechanical air movement, it's a concentration gradient thing; one end is releasing filtered air, but the pulling force of that filtered air being released draws in unfiltered air on the other side of the tube.

We assume that bark is depleted of nutrients, but the air is filled with NOx molecules and I don't believe rain water is so devoid of nutrients that bark loses more than it can take up. So bark being a N-catcher would mean it's been growing in completely sterile filtered air OR that all hollow tubes of the bark have been closed off for its entire lifespan, until it's blended in our bonsai soil. Which defies pretty much all logic to me.
There was a discussion a while back about it, and I'm doing trials with grass growing on bark mix vs. regular soil. There's not much difference other than the fact that bark holds water better than regular soil. I'm not seeing any signs of deficiencies. So all things considered, I think the effect is minimal.
WoW well said. That makes a lot of sense. I actually had that same thought all along... when one thinks about it, it's kinda logic really.
I just read the N is taken up and held by the microbes in the soil. When they die, the N is released back again...so there'll always be N in there.
 
Tannin is a common name for something like 'liquid extracts from plant material'. They can be both good and bad, depending on the origin and the concentration. The tannins from oak leaves and bark can be used to preserve leather, tannins from coffee give it the dark color and can work as an insecticide but also as a weed killer. Phenols from pomegranate have shown to be degraded by our gut flora into compounds that seem to have a positive effect on mitochondria, extending their lifecycle. It's still a matter of investigation though.
In general, I think that tannins from fresh material could have negative effects. The carbon molecules (mostly phenols and/or aromatic compounds) inside them are usually signalling molecules that tell surrounding plants and surrounding microbes that a tree is injured or dying. Phenols are short lived though, and they oxidize pretty fast.
So if the bark is cured/dried for a couple weeks or months, then most of the negative materials have been broken down. Of course, the bark on the outside of trees has been washed by the rain multiple times and exposed to sunlight and air for so long that I think the curing isn't even necessary.
If the bark is sterilized or pasteurized, which is the case in most pet store bark, most of those aromatic compounds are long gone. I ruined an autoclave once by trying to autoclave pine wood; the insides of the steam vessel were covered in dark sticky material that smelled like barbecue. I know for a fact that the smokey flavor in hotdogs and other food products comes from stuff like that (over here known as 'smoke extract'). It can be highly flammable and even explosive if it contains too much nitrogen, which happens when fresh wood is used.

I believe bark in a bag is sufficiently cured and dried to use in our soil. If the negative effects would be big enough to notice, I think we would've heard more about it.
In the case of growing orchids, where seeds need to be inoculated with bacteria and fungi (from the mother plant) to germinate and live, I can see why the bark needs to be treated; seeds don't germinate well in the presence of some aromatic compounds and if the tannins have an antibacterial or antifungal function, then the inoculation could not be successful. Orchid seeds don't store starches and sugars like most other seeds, so orchids actually rely on symbiotic fungi to give them a chance at life. If those fungi can't live due to the tannins, then the seeds can't live either. In the case of germinating orchids, I think it's a good idea to treat the bark if it's not treated already. Most plants that life in forests however, can deal with pretty high amounts of tannins. Just have a look at the water color of the Amazon river; it's mostly tannins, and life thrives over there.
Thanks for information. It makes a lot of sense
Thụ Thoại
 
Hey @fredman, reading through this thread I’m wondering what the issue is that you are trying to solve.

I think adding orchid bark is a great, albeit a mite expensive idea.

I was just doing volunteer pruning work at Elandan Gardens. Its owner, Dan Robinson, told me he always uses an equal mix of fir bark, pumice and lava rock for all his bonsai and has never repotted his bonsai, ever. (I asked twice.). He doesn’t treat or sift the bark at all. See some of his awesome bonsai below.

So if you are planting orchids, it seems this is an ok treatment, although the AOS does say that not treating orchid bark works fine too.

If you are trying to establish a good environment for acid loving (pH 4.5-6) azaleas, for example, why spend time bathing your media in lime water, which has a pH of about 12.4?“ (Not that it would have a substantial effect on driving the pH up much, if at all.).

Wondering 😉
DSD sends
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Thanks for sharing. I did not know the soil content which Dan Robinson uses. I have been using soil content almost likes him.
You said he never changed the soil after that, didn’t you ? Did you ask him what the reason was ? Thanks
Thụ Thoại
 
ts owner, Dan Robinson, told me he always uses an equal mix of fir bark, pumice and lava rock for all his bonsai and has never repotted his bonsai, ever. (I asked twice.)
This further throws a wrench into the conversation about repotting with organics due to the breakdown of the bark over time.... Super interesting and amazing trees!
 
Thanks for sharing. I did not know the soil content which Dan Robinson uses. I have been using soil content almost likes him.
You said he never changed the soil after that, didn’t you ? Did you ask him what the reason was ? Thanks
Thụ Thoại
Yes I did.

First off, this part requires a little more information. I fear that because I just tossed that fact out that this practice of his could be taken out of context. The fact is that his entire operation is based on a cohesive well thought out rationale created over time and experience.

Dan is inarguably the foremost tree collector the Pacific Northwest. We didn’t see any “starter trees” in the hundreds on site, although we did see small collected trees and a few older trees that he said were gifted to him..

I think one of the main points Dan said is he wants his trees to look old, not juvenile, so he wants them to look a little stressed.

It seems Dan’s original background is in landscape and horticulture. He started collecting “odd looking“ trees when he was planting large numbers of trees for his family.

Reflective of his trees, Dan has a number of well thought out principles he goes by. Among them are (check the link for his actual list and more information.) These are some of the ones I heard him say to our “Pruning party”
  • Triangles aren’t natural in nature, it’s an artificial design. He advocates a design theme that emulates ancientness which is more reflective of nature.
  • All trees deserve to be gnarly with no straight lines.... I saw he does alot of carving to reflect this theme.
  • All trees deserve to have dead wood,
  • Trees shouldn’t have pruning scars (see 1&2) Diagonal cutters create bullseyes which are not natural.
  • Wire should only be placed where you need it. (I observed lots of guy wires instead.)
  • Prune only when the tree is weakest for miniaturization.
Ok, with that minimal context on with the story.

Media: Dan’s been a Bonsai collector and artist for 60 years and pretty outspoken about using things like acadama and kanuma soils (calls them the enemy).

Partly, as we understood, because these type of soils breakdown in a short number of years and require changing frequently.

Also that repotting is damaging to a trees roots and weakens the trees.

btw: I think I heard Dan say he uses miracle gro for fertilizer.

So I hope that answers your questions.

cheers
DSD sends
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@fredman
I'm here!

I use orchid bark in my bonsai mixes. Usually bark is 25% of the mix. The rest will be majority pumice, but can also be lava, Akadama when I have a good grade of it, lately the only Akadama available locally has been really crappy. Sometimes DE, sometimes a small fraction of Turface. For azalea, I add some Kanuma if available. Most of the time 25 % bark. For bald cypress I go a bit heavier on bark, closer to 50%. For Blueberries I add some peat.

I merely wet the bark with water, no lime solution. I do not worry about "nitrogen demand" of decaying bark. I fertilize lightly but regularly, and never have trouble with nitrogen demand from bark that has not been "composted" ahead of use. I let it compost right there in the pot. Note: my municipal water has 175 ppm Calcium as calcium carbonate. This is more than enough to meet the calcium needs of my orchids and my bonsai. Adding calcium, by soaking bark in lime solution would be counter-productive in my area. It would retard the growth of azaleas and would KILL my blueberries.

You are in New Zealand. If your water is very low in total dissolved solids and low in calcium it might make sense to soak bark in a weak lime solution. BUT you need to check out your water supply. I believe your orchid grower might be indulging in an "arcane" practice that is not really science based.

Another possibility, when I say bark, I mean bark usually sourced from the douglas fir tree. If the bark you are getting is from Pinus radiata, there are differences in getting it to wet and hold water. Pinus radiata bark that we get here (at a premium price) is usually soaked lime. So your orchid grower is on the mark if it is Pinus radiata bark. Check with him on the strength of the solution they use for soaking and whether or not they rinse afterward.

Pinus radiata bark is excellent, its usable life span is double or triple that of douglas fir bark. It decomposes very slowly. I would use more of it here if it were not so expense, the expense being we have to import it from Australia or New Zealand. Pinus radiata is native to only a very small area in USA and is not popular as a plantation pine in the USA. I find radiata pine bark will last 5 to 7 years in good enough shape for orchids, then another 3 or more years as a component recycled into bonsai media. As a bonsai media, starting fresh I would imagine radiata pine bark would last 5 to 10 years as a bonsai media component.
 
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