Options for a (not entirely) dead Trident

[takira]

TLDR, this poor little trident was subject to my amateur efforts as part of a workshop on thread grafting back in late March. Both the taproot and top were cut back pretty heavily and it struggled for a while but seemed to stabilize. Then I got the bright idea to put it behind shade cloth to avoid leaf scorch and kept it well watered - probably too well watered, and several more of the remaining leaves turned brown and wet earlier this month so I figured I was overwatering. I took it out from behind the shade cloth so it could get better sun and air circulation and tried to let it just about dry out between waterings - it seemed to have stabilized, and then we were hit with several nights in a row of torrential rain.

Now it's as you see below. However, the whip that was grafted through it is still thriving (presumably because its roots weren't traumatized as part of the workshop).





I have two basic questions here. I know some people defoliate maples midway through the growing season - obviously that isn't what's happened here, but is there any chance new growth could recur with better care? Secondly, if the poor little main tree is really quite sincerely dead, will the thread-grafted whip ever get big enough to try and make itself its own composition with the dead stump (rearranged/carved/whathaveyou) as part of it?

Thanks for any advice - I feel awful for what's happened to this little trident, but I don't want to give up on it entirely.

 

[Paradox]

TLDR, this poor little trident was subject to my amateur efforts as part of a workshop on thread grafting back in late March. Both the taproot and top were cut back pretty heavily and it struggled for a while but seemed to stabilize. Then I got the bright idea to put it behind shade cloth to avoid leaf scorch and kept it well watered - probably too well watered, and several more of the remaining leaves turned brown and wet earlier this month so I figured I was overwatering. I took it out from behind the shade cloth so it could get better sun and air circulation and tried to let it just about dry out between waterings - it seemed to have stabilized, and then we were hit with several nights in a row of torrential rain.

Now it's as you see below. However, the whip that was grafted through it is still thriving (presumably because its roots weren't traumatized as part of the workshop).

View attachment 553438

View attachment 553439

I have two basic questions here. I know some people defoliate maples midway through the growing season - obviously that isn't what's happened here, but is there any chance new growth could recur with better care? Secondly, if the poor little main tree is really quite sincerely dead, will the thread-grafted whip ever get big enough to try and make itself its own composition with the dead stump (rearranged/carved/whathaveyou) as part of it?

Thanks for any advice - I feel awful for what's happened to this little trident, but I don't want to give up on it entirely.

If the main trunk is dead, there is nothing live for the live tissue of the whip to connect to. That's how grafting works: connecting live tissue from the donor to the live tissue of the recipient tree. If the whip is connected to live tissue or the roots, it could survive and grow into a tree of its own. Unfortunately the main trunk, if dead will stay dead at this point.

tridents are tough but in this case, it might have been a case of too much all at once

Looks like you have it in akadama? I don't see how you could overwater that unless it's not draining properly

 

[takira]

If the main trunk is dead, there is nothing live for the live tissue of the whip to connect to. That's how grafting works: connecting live tissue from the donor to the live tissue of the recipient tree. If the whip is connected to live tissue or the roots, it could survive and grow into a tree of its own. Unfortunately the main trunk, if dead will stay dead at this point.

tridents are tough but in this case, it might have been a case of too much all at once

Looks like you have it in akadama? I don't see how you could overwater that unless it's not draining properly

The whip has its own roots (sticking out the other side of the trunk) but I'm guessing that being trapped inside a dead trunk would become a problem - if it tried to grow, it can't expand in the portion that's in the main trunk and I assume that would be limiting.

It's in aoki blend, so mostly akadama but not purely. There's one reasonably sized drainage hole at the bottom of the pot and it has always seemed to drain well when I've watered it. I did up until recently have a layer of sphagnum moss on the top to prevent it drying out but it had that for a couple of months without a problem. Given the whip/graft has been doing fine on its own, I'm guessing it was the initial trauma to the main tree that, even if it didn't kill it, weakened it enough that it couldn't thrive.

 

[Shibui]

Tridents are normally very resilient. I think nothing of removing 90% of roots and similar top reduction in one operation and still manage close to 100% success. My guess is there's something else going on that has caused this problem.
Too wet would be unusual for spring/summer in my experience but all things are possible if you try hard enough. I don't use akadama. In some trials I found the surface dried out but deeper down it stayed far too wet under my watering regime.

Far more trees succumb to dehydration from not enough water through spring and summer. Any chance it could have dried out at some stage. Damage sometimes does not show up immediately so the incident may have been a week or more ago?

I would continue care and cross fingers. I've seen many tridents drop all the leaves and then bud again a few weeks later.

As has already been mentioned, the thread graft is unlikely to survive when restricted by dead wood all round but if you raise soil level to bury the 'out' side of the seedling it will self layer as it swells inside the stump.

 

[takira]

I've noticed that everything below the surface seems to be staying damp - I've got another (older, more established, not recently-massacred) Trident that's perfectly happy in pure akadama, but it's also in a nice proper bonsai pot with abundant drainage. Given how this one's been looking, I'm still leaning toward over watering vs. under.

Would it be worth the risk to very gently (NOT bareroot) repot it into a little larger pot with better drainage and some better-draining medium around it, or is that likely to just finish it off (assuming it hasn't been finished-off already)?

Either way I'll bury the exit end of the seedling to see if I can get it to self-layer, thanks for the suggestion!

 

[leatherback]

I cannot figure out what you have tried to do here. Seems like you did massive rootwork. Then pruned the top. And then drilled a hole through the trunk and treadbraft something through the base? (WHY?).

It looks like the main trunk is drying off because you tried to do the work of 3 growing seasons in one go.

 

[takira]

I cannot figure out what you have tried to do here. Seems like you did massive rootwork. Then pruned the top. And then drilled a hole through the trunk and treadbraft something through the base? (WHY?).

It looks like the main trunk is drying off because you tried to do the work of 3 growing seasons in one go.

Absolutely agreed. It was part of a workshop on thread grafting (hence the thread graft, which wasn't something I'd do just for the heck of it but I was curious) that, thanks to early leafing out, wasn't timed very well for the development of the tree. The work was quite a lot on top and bottom out of an excess of enthusiasm which I will absolutely not carry forward as I continue to work on bonsai.

At this point I'm just trying to learn as much as I can from the poor thing so its death wasn't entirely in vain. Obviously the best case scenario would have been never to have done all this to it at once - I'm just attempting to salvage what I can for now. If/when it finishes dying it won't be a mystery, just a shame.

 

[leatherback]

Main thing you should have learned is that you apply advanced techniques ONLY on healthy established trees.

 

[Shibui]

Would it be worth the risk to very gently (NOT bareroot) repot it into a little larger pot with better drainage and some better-draining medium around it, or is that likely to just finish it off (assuming it hasn't been finished-off already)?

My first option is always to modify your care to suit the soil, tree and conditions rather than a repot but I'm all for emergency repot if that's the best option.

In many cases, if the soil is killing the tree there's no point keeping it in the soil. Repot is a chance of it dying, leaving as is is certain death.
Given it now has no leaves it is essentially dormant (or dead) in which case repotting should not be traumatic.
If you decide to go ahead with the repot, don't worry so much about 'very carefully (not bare root)'. If you are repotting to change out the bad soil it needs to be bare rooted doesn't it? How else are you going to get it into better draining soil?
Definitely never put poorly draining soil inside better draining soil. That's often worse still than just a pot full of poor soil

Seems like you did massive rootwork. Then pruned the top. And then drilled a hole through the trunk and treadbraft something through the base?

I'd still need to see the roots to confirm the 'massive' root work. I find that beginners tend to overestimate such things.
As for doing these 3 operations in one session or in quick succession, I do not find that any problem with trident maple down here.
We also have no indication of the tree's state of health before or an accurate understanding of care after the work was done.
I still suspect there's something else going on we have not yet uncovered.
.

 

[takira]

Many thanks for the critique and suggestions. I would also prefer to just manage watering carefully in this case, but we appear to be in a phase of unscheduled thunderstorms nearly nightly that are keeping everything wet if it isn't draining well. I ended up trying a repot today just so I could see what was going on under there and maybe do something useful about it - and if the main tree is dead I won't have done it much harm. >_>;;

The drainage hole on the bottom of the pot was present, but not very big and the soil was small enough granules I was concerned about drainage - once I got it out of the pot there was some muddiness to the soil at the very bottom of the pot.





That said, the nice looking roots I could see could mostly be traced to the whip - both at the root end and it looks like it's already trying to ground layer at the other end. I couldn't find much in the way of healthy-looking roots from the main tree, but also didn't want to do too much trauma poking and pulling at things, so I settled for delicately removing the existing soil with the tip of bamboo skewer and potting it up in a better draining mix (about 2:1 pumice/akadama) in a bonsai pot with a drainage hole about four times the size of the previous one. Watered it gently but thoroughly, misted the leaves on the whip and tucked it away in shade with some protection from wind and plenty of indirect light.







I don't think I can blame the failure of the main tree on anything but my initial work on it, honestly, but I'll keep my fingers crossed and continue care just for the whip if nothing else. If I can get that to ground-layer and grow it a while (maybe wiring next year) perhaps I can let it be its own tree and keep just a little of the original trunk, as a tribute to resilience in the face of basic incompetence. -_-;;

Again, many thanks for the feedback. Ultimately the best path to a healthy tree is not to screw it up in the first place, but we'll see how this goes.

 

[PonderingSage:]

Yeah, I think at this point I would just leave that tree be for a long time and just let it grow unrestricted & water as needed.