Nursery haul and trunk wiring - Did I commit any atrocities?

[HandyGringo]

Hey guys, I bought a bunch of conifers and wired movement into the trunks while it's still possible. Looking for general input or design ideas, criticism, educational material, instructional youtube videos, relevant tidbits, etc.

I know the wire is loose on some of them, really hard to get it tight against the trunk when the wire is so thick! (I tried to do double wire on one of them, with a smaller gauge wire, but that somehow seemed to hold less strong than just using a single of the larger gauge)

In order: Mugo, Scots, Scots, Nigra, Nigra, Hemlock (Canadensis), Cedrus Libani.

Most of the pines have the same issue that I'll have to deal with, the whorls of 4'ish branches. I don't want bar branches, obviously, how do you decide what to keep?

Generally, I left as much foliage as possible, except on the hemlock where I removed weaker growth to see what was going on. Some of the pines had growth really low on the trunk, which I kept in case there's potential for shohin. I haven't cut down on the tops of any of the pines, they're staying as sacrificial.

Thanks in advance for any insights. Sorry if it's a lot of text and pictures.

 

[LuZiKui]

how do you decide what to keep?

That's the million dollar question! I think first you need to decide what size tree you are going for. If you are doing shohin it won't much matter which branches you leave on the upper trunk because you will be cutting it all off.

Then at some point you need to start deciding your front and the angle that you will plant it. Once you know that you can begin to select branches that will compliment your front.

As you probably know pines don't really back bud on old wood so they are sort of tricky trees. They aren't like a vigorous deciduous tree that will backbud wherever/whenever. Do you have a bonsai club nearby that you can join? I'd recommend spending time with someone to do some hands on practice. 20 minutes of hands on feedback is worth 5 hours of youtube videos.

Also, the bonsaify videos on Youtube are a great resource and Eric is one of the members here on Bnut.

Here is a really good video walking through development on younger trees:

 

[HandyGringo]

That's the million dollar question! I think first you need to decide what size tree you are going for. If you are doing shohin it won't much matter which branches you leave on the upper trunk because you will be cutting it all off.

Then at some point you need to start deciding your front and the angle that you will plant it. Once you know that you can begin to select branches that will compliment your front.

As you probably know pines don't really back bud on old wood so they are sort of tricky trees. They aren't like a vigorous deciduous tree that will backbud wherever/whenever. Do you have a bonsai club nearby that you can join? I'd recommend spending time with someone to do some hands on practice. 20 minutes of hands on feedback is worth 5 hours of youtube videos.

Also, the bonsaify videos on Youtube are a great resource and Eric is one of the members here on Bnut.

Here is a really good video walking through development on younger trees:

Ty for the link, I'm sure I've probably watched it already but I'll give it another go. Eric is a great source of info. Can recommend his JBP course as well. Following that with some 1-2-year-old JBP and fresh ones from this year.

I'm moving soon so as soon as I'm settled somewhere I'll look for the nearest club to join. I have been working with some more experienced practitioners, it's really valuable as you say.

I guess what I'm confused about is, we shouldn't have bar branches. There shouldn't be more than 2 branches at any internode, so what I'm left with, is either a branch going North and one going East, or one going North and one going West, as an L shape, if that makes sense. Is that 'okay' for pine bonsai? Because for deciduous the growth alternates, so it's easier to make decisions IMO, the whole whorlyness of pine makes for hard choices.

I will give the trees another look. I envy the people who have the experience to 'see' it quickly. I hope I reach that point one day. Thanks for the input.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

You can always turn a branch into the trunk by cutting the main trunk off and leaving two branches. That leaves an L shape as well, but when you think about it; every branch originating from a trunk is an L shape, or a V shape, depending on the angle.

It's not that everybody else sees more than you, or that they're better at it.. They just make the cuts amd see where it goes. Doing design can be a matter of just doing what's logical, waiting a year or two and working with what's left.
Half of my trees started looking like ravaged seedlings with ugly cuts, and now some 4 years later they're starting to look like something more bonsai.
The picture below started out like one of your seedlings, and it was made by leaving one branch and one trunk at each whorl. Far from refinement or being awesome, but it's getting somewhere.

 

[Shibui]

I guess what I'm confused about is, we shouldn't have bar branches. There shouldn't be more than 2 branches at any internode, so what I'm left with, is either a branch going North and one going East, or one going North and one going West, as an L shape, if that makes sense.

In actual fact there should be no more than one branch and the trunk at any internode. As mentioned, sometimes the main trunk is cut and one branch becomes the new trunk with another branch as a branch. That approach can give better bends in the trunk and usually adds some taper as the trunk now goes from old, thick trunk to what was a thinner branch as the new trunk. Whether you end up with a L shape depends on the angle you wire the branches and trunk.

At this stage of development try not to see the main trunk as the ultimate trunk. There will usually be chops as the trees grow and thicken so what you ultimately end up with will not usually be what is there now. In may cases the present top will be used as a sacrifice branch to thicken the lower trunk and will be cut off at some stage and a ne top made with a lower branch.

 

[HandyGringo]

You can always turn a branch into the trunk by cutting the main trunk off and leaving two branches. That leaves an L shape as well, but when you think about it; every branch originating from a trunk is an L shape, or a V shape, depending on the angle.

It's not that everybody else sees more than you, or that they're better at it.. They just make the cuts amd see where it goes. Doing design can be a matter of just doing what's logical, waiting a year or two and working with what's left.
Half of my trees started looking like ravaged seedlings with ugly cuts, and now some 4 years later they're starting to look like something more bonsai.
The picture below started out like one of your seedlings, and it was made by leaving one branch and one trunk at each whorl. Far from refinement or being awesome, but it's getting somewhere.

I must have misunderstood some advice somewhere along the line, to be believing that 2 branches in the same spot are okay as long as they're not bar branches. Thanks for the reassurance, I found a video that very well resembles my situation and also follows the advice you gave.

- Shows him compressing a tree, roughly the same size as mine, and removing branches down to 1 on each whorl.

In terms of 'seeing more than me' it just seems like when I watch demonstrations by Bjorn or Mauro or Ryan Neil, Jelle, etc, they always have a final idea for pad placement, the apex, and movement, within minutes. Obviously, they're experts with many years of experience, but I just feel like I'm not improving in that regard. I know I've only spent two years, which is barely enough to understand the basics of bonsai, but still, I feel like I'm struggling with the design aspect of it.

Your material might still be young, in a bonsai sense, but it's certainly getting somewhere as you say, It's looking very elegant and has a nice shape. Thanks for the help.

In actual fact there should be no more than one branch and the trunk at any internode. As mentioned, sometimes the main trunk is cut and one branch becomes the new trunk with another branch as a branch. That approach can give better bends in the trunk and usually adds some taper as the trunk now goes from old, thick trunk to what was a thinner branch as the new trunk. Whether you end up with a L shape depends on the angle you wire the branches and trunk.

At this stage of development try not to see the main trunk as the ultimate trunk. There will usually be chops as the trees grow and thicken so what you ultimately end up with will not usually be what is there now. In may cases the present top will be used as a sacrifice branch to thicken the lower trunk and will be cut off at some stage and a ne top made with a lower branch.

Gotcha. I must have misunderstood at some point. The only thing I'm not sure about when it comes to keeping only one branch at each internode, is that on this material I feel like there's pretty far between the internodes, but I guess that's why I should be compressing the tree down as much as possible. I do plan on retaining the present top on all the trees as they're still pretty 'thin' in the grand scheme of things. I appreciate the input and reassurance.

 

[RoadManDenDron]

there's pretty far between the internodes,

Unfortunately this is common in a lot of nursery material or any material that was not grown with bonsai in mind.

As you say you can bend to compress the trunk but also bend branches to close gaps, a long branch can bend down and have foliage where you want it but don't get a branch on the trunk.

as far as the 'eye' goes i have been understanding more as my material gets more developed, but I still like to take my time, often running through ideas of an evening of how to approach a particular tree.

It's impressive how quickly the pros can work a piece of material, it likely comes with the number of trees they have worked on over time, of course what we see is not always the whole picture, I'm sure they spend some amount of time before a video or demo to familiarise with the material and come up with a plan, although for viewers it seems to be improvised and instant.

Don't beat yourself up, just like trees need time and patience so does our own development, you are doing the right thing in reading, learning, watching and practicing. You probably already have the skills and knowledge and as you see and build on your successes your confidence will grow.

 

[pandacular]

There's also nothing wrong with letting a piece of material sit for months or years while you decide what's best for it. I have a few trees that I had no clue what to do with them when I got them, but started to develop a clearer vision after just watering them for several months. It's also a good time to learn about how to take care of that tree, and figure out what sort of response it may have to working it.

 

[GGB]

Like @pandacular I look at my trees for many months before I do anything major. Sometimes (in my head ) I'm committed to a design, then out of nowhere I see something way better one day when I turn the tree.

 

[GGB]

also your material is so young that heavy feeding and full sun may give you some buds in great places. But that will require a strong tree with lots of foliage. Can't wait forever with conifers, but in this case I would wait a little

 

[HandyGringo]

Unfortunately this is common in a lot of nursery material or any material that was not grown with bonsai in mind.

How would you keep the internode length short if you were growing the trees yourself? I assume it comes down to the fertilization and timing?

I think you're right about the pros pre-analyzing the material. I'm going to assume they do at least, makes me feel less inadequate.

Thanks for the reassurance. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who needs to take my time.

There's also nothing wrong with letting a piece of material sit for months or years while you decide what's best for it. I have a few trees that I had no clue what to do with them when I got them, but started to develop a clearer vision after just watering them for several months. It's also a good time to learn about how to take care of that tree, and figure out what sort of response it may have to working it.

Like @pandacular I look at my trees for many months before I do anything major. Sometimes (in my head ) I'm committed to a design, then out of nowhere I see something way better one day when I turn the tree.

You're both very right, there's no rush. I wired the part that is most urgent - I don't think inverse taper is going to appear overnight! Might fit perfectly with pruning in the autumn, hopefully, by then I have somewhat of a plan.

also your material is so young that heavy feeding and full sun may give you some buds in great places. But that will require a strong tree with lots of foliage. Can't wait forever with conifers, but in this case I would wait a little

Yessir, I'll be patient, I assume the heavy bending will induce some back budding as well. I know Mugos and Sylvestris do backbud at least.

Thanks to all of you for your input.

 

[RoadManDenDron]

It depends on the species of tree, a number of techniques are used, plenty of light, holding off ferts in spring when new growth is pushing hardest, letting spring growth go wild and then chopping back later in the year (and then holding back on ferts) for more stunted growth, not using ferts with too high N. Are just a few.

Also important to remember we are often only concerned about the bottom of the tree, if internodes low down are small enough and we just want a thicker trunk it makes no difference how the above grows as it will be chopped. later anyway. Often we are balancing slow growth with small internodes low down but encouraging strong sacrifice growth above to thicken the trunk.

If you take your first pic as an example there are low down needles close to the trunk, if i seen 2 small and 1 large candle on that in spring I would choose the smaller candles and remove the large one. But if it was at the top I would probably let all of the candles run to thicken the trunk, the inverse taper wouldn't matter because it will be chopped.

 

[leatherback]

they always have a final idea for pad placement, the apex, and movement, within minutes. Obviously, they're experts with many years of experience, but I just feel like I'm not improving in that regard. I know I've only spent two years, which is barely enough to understand the basics of bonsai, but still, I feel like I'm struggling with the design aspect of it.

A few thoughts on this.

When watching videos you see the outcome of preparation and planning. So yes, when starting the work there is a rough direction where they want to go with the material at hand. This is supported by the experience. (For a styling competition I prepared by wiring out a carload of junipers). After working hundreds of trees, you get an idea of what options there are, and where some of the traps are.

BUT
MAYBE even more importantly..

There is the realization that often there are multiple options and you just have to go with a direction. One of the tricks is to be outwardly certain what the best option is. Even if you see 3 routes.

I did a club styling a year ago, and there I had the members tell me which direction they wanted to go with the tree I brought in. Basically talking me through the size and style. Then entering discussion with the members which branches should be kept and why. All before doing any work on the tree. It was a real excersize in realizing: There is not just one correct road towards the final tree.

But it does take a bit.

What might help: Go to good shows and study the structure of the trees. Look at how they solved challenges. That way you have a library of solutions to problems for building your trees.

 

[Shibui]

There is the realization that often there are multiple options and you just have to go with a direction. One of the tricks is to be outwardly certain what the best option is. Even if you see 3 routes.

I did a club styling a year ago, and there I had the members tell me which direction they wanted to go with the tree I brought in. Basically talking me through the size and style. Then entering discussion with the members which branches should be kept and why. All before doing any work on the tree. It was a real excersize in realizing: There is not just one correct road towards the final tree.

Excellent encapsulation of expert at work. Beginners are often scared to do anything for fear of making a wrong decision. Demonstrators know that which ever choice they make is then the correct choice even if there were several options to start with

How would you keep the internode length short if you were growing the trees yourself? I assume it comes down to the fertilization and timing?

Allowing stronger upper growth tends to restrain lower branches which grow with shorter internodes. Eventually the tall, strong, coarse section is cut off and the tree made with those shorter internode lower branches.
Pruning also helps on may species. Strong spring shoots are cut back in summer. Resulting shoots usually have much shorter internodes which are then used to make the tree.
Commercial trees are force fed and looked after to get the largest possible tree in shortest possible time in order to make quicker profit. Results in long, coarse growth and straight trunks which is great for landscape but not always best for bonsai.
.
Conifers do not have internodes like deciduous. Conifer branches do grow in whorls from the end of each season's growth which looks like nodes but every needle has a dormant reserve bud just in case. When pruned back those buds can emerge from any healthy needles and sometimes from where older needles have already fallen so it is still possible to prune conifers and get branches closer together.

 

[HandyGringo]

It depends on the species of tree, a number of techniques are used...

Thanks for elaborating. I'm already doing most of the things you mention, mostly. Low N fert for shorter internodes, at least on the low-down branches, since the trunk is too late to get short internodes (Unless backbud), haven't touched the top growth, gonna let that run wild until the trunk has thickened a bit. I've done a bit of candle pruning/candle breaking on many of my other pines, so I agree completely with getting rid of a terminal bud to retain the smaller ones. Also for ramification, right?

A few thoughts on this...

Thanks for the insights! I'll be honest, picking an option just became a lot easier with the realization that I should only have 1 branch at each internode. Picking a single branch seems like something I can problem-solve.

I have a local mentor/expert who I've worked with on a few trees. I'd show up with a few ideas for a tree, show him the ideas, wire the tree, position it, style it, and then he'd give me feedback, and often times I'd end up going in a different direction based on his input. He also keeps telling me that Bonsai is a social hobby, which I understand more and more, there are, as you say, multiple ways to solve problems and multiple directions to take, you just have to take one of them.

I guess I will keep on doing what I'm doing, get some more trees and some more experience. Thank you again.

Allowing stronger upper growth tends to restrain lower branches which grow with shorter internodes. Eventually the tall, strong, coarse section is cut off and the tree made with those shorter internode lower branches.
Pruning also helps on may species. Strong spring shoots are cut back in summer. Resulting shoots usually have much shorter internodes which are then used to make the tree.
Commercial trees are force fed and looked after to get the largest possible tree in shortest possible time in order to make quicker profit. Results in long, coarse growth and straight trunks which is great for landscape but not always best for bonsai.
.
Conifers do not have internodes like deciduous. Conifer branches do grow in whorls from the end of each season's growth which looks like nodes but every needle has a dormant reserve bud just in case. When pruned back those buds can emerge from any healthy needles and sometimes from where older needles have already fallen so it is still possible to prune conifers and get branches closer together.

Gotcha. That's roughly how I understood it to work, in terms of energy. If the top of the tree is taking most of it, then the lower part will grow more compact. I look forward to using my own trees and styling those. As you say, regular nursery material isn't ideal due to the methodology and their goal. It's good practice though, I'm sure I can get a worthwhile bonsai out of them as well, even if not ideal.

I hope I get some backbudding after pruning and wiring. I know from my other Scots pine that they tend to backbud post-wiring/pruning as long as they're fertilized well.

Thanks for the info.