Novice questions about Trident maple

[Katie0317]

I've not been able to get to classes in almost 8 months and I haven't joined any clubs yet. Soon we'll be able to start classes again but until then there are things I don't understand regarding a Trident maple I bought a year ago that's now about 11 years old or more.

I've done reading and I understand the reasoning of removing terminal buds and I do that.

I've also been pinching the tiny middle leaf between two emerging leaves. I've read that doing this will lead to increased ramification and shorter internodes and that I don't understand. I stay on top of it and am able to use my fingers rather than tweezers but again I don't understand the reasoning for doing this? Am hoping someone on BN can explain it to me.

I've also been removing a lot of the older dark green leaves and larger leaves. I've tried to keep the tree from being congested with leaves, particularly in the center. Even though this is a shohin sized tree it's put out a lot of leaves.

We're several months ahead in terms of weather here in Florida. Spring begins at the beginning of March and the Trident had its first flush about then.

Some of the branches need to be wired but I'm unsure of when I should do that so I haven't. I'm also not confident in my wiring skills yet and am afraid I'll put the wire on too tight. If anyone has a rule of thumb they use to decide how tight the wire should be wrapped I'd appreciate hearing it. Also, when is the best time to wire? I learn best by watching and doing. Some people learn by reading and I can learn that way but it's more difficult for me.

My tendency is towards perfectionism which isn't always a good thing because it keeps be from doing something if I don't think I can do it perfectly.

I fertilize about every ten days and alternate between fish emulsion and Dyna-gro bonsai fertilizer and keep biogold fertilizer on all my trees. This is a good mix for all our tropical trees but if there's a better way of feeding a Trident maple I'd try it. It seems pretty happy with the status quo but I don't want to overdo it.

Thanks a bunch!

 

[Dav4]

Let’s see… Pinching terminal buds is something I do primarily with very well developed Japanese maples. Trident maples in development get wired and cut back multiple times each growing season. The wire is placed on the semi lignified new shoots and removed 4 to 6 weeks later when the wire just begins to bite in. More developed trident maples get sheared or defoliated through the growing season. Finally, trident Maples need lots of fertilizer. As long as you’re feeding them, you’re doing fine. I use fish emulsion and tea bags full of plant tone.

 

[Clicio]

Like @Dav4 has said, only pinch well developed trees, in refinement mode.
My climate is somehow similar to South Florida's, therefore I trim and wire them during the season, and defoliate tridents mid-summer. In my case, I leave a sacrifice branch going wild to thicken the trunks of young TMs.

 

[Clicio]

As for wiring:

Bonsai Wiring Essentials

Uncover professional secrets to wiring better, faster and more accurately in this FREE mini-class, and develop beautiful bonsai trees!

www.craftsy.com

 

[Katie0317]

Let’s see… Pinching terminal buds is something I do primarily with very well developed Japanese maples. Trident maples in development get wired and cut back multiple times each growing season. The wire is placed on the semi lignified new shoots and removed 4 to 6 weeks later when the wire just begins to bite in. More developed trident maples get sheared or defoliated through the growing season. Finally, trident Maples need lots of fertilizer. As long as you’re feeding them, you’re doing fine. I use fish emulsion and tea bags full of plant tone.

Thank you. How exactly does pinching the miniature bud between two emerging leaves impact the tree? That's what I don't understand the most!

 

[Katie0317]

As for wiring:

Bonsai Wiring Essentials

Uncover professional secrets to wiring better, faster and more accurately in this FREE mini-class, and develop beautiful bonsai trees!

www.craftsy.com

Cilcio, That's a good wiring video. I've seen it from the beginning. I get stuck sometimes or 'where do I go from here?' when I'm wiring. I probably need to clip and start with a new wire.

 

[Shibui]

Thank you. How exactly does pinching the miniature bud between two emerging leaves impact the tree? That's what I don't understand the most!

My understand in g is that removing the terminal removes the growth hormones which means the leaves and internode below grow slower than otherwise resulting in smaller leaves and shorter internodes. I do not always get the results that are claimed when doing this so it may even be another of the bonsai myths or maybe just not as effective as sometimes claimed.
Wiring and bending trident is not much affected by time of year however wiring is very much easier with no leaves to get in the way so I tend to trim and wire after leaves drop. Just need to ensure wires are removed before those shoots thicken through late spring and summer.
Wiring with leaves is just as effective albeit tedious. Again, growing shoots thicken quickly so monitor wires regularly or risk unsightly spiral scars.
Very young, green shoots can be wired and will set within a few weeks.
I tend to develop tridents through pruning and only use wires to redirect shoots were pruning alone won't achieve the results.

 

[Clicio]

Cilcio, That's a good wiring video. I've seen it from the beginning. I get stuck sometimes or 'where do I go from here?' when I'm wiring. I probably need to clip and start with a new wire.

I guess if you follow the advice wiring first the thickest, using the slingshot technique, and fine wiring the tips when finishing, you won't get stuck.

 

[Dav4]

Thank you. How exactly does pinching the miniature bud between two emerging leaves impact the tree? That's what I don't understand the most!

With A. palmatums, pinching the central bud essentially ends the extension of that branch for the rest of the growing season... there may be some activation of dormant buds further back on the branch but it's sporadic at best. I've never done this with tridents. My assumption is that, due to trident's inherent strength, they would likely bud back more consistently. If your shohin trident is further along in development and ramification is your goal, pinching may work. It would also make sense to be wiring in winter before the spring push. With my small tridents, I tend to let the buds extend for a bit- read that as 4- 6 internodes depending on the tree- then cut back to two leaves.

 

[Dav4]

With A. palmatums, pinching the central bud essentially ends the extension of that branch for the rest of the growing season... there may be some activation of dormant buds further back on the branch but it's sporadic at best. I've never done this with tridents. My assumption is that, due to trident's inherent strength, they would likely bud back more consistently. If your shohin trident is further along in development and ramification is your goal, pinching may work. It would also make sense to be wiring in winter before the spring push. With my small tridents, I tend to let the buds extend for a bit- read that as 4- 6 internodes depending on the tree- then cut back to two leaves.

I misspoke… it should read 2-4 internodes.

 

[Katie0317]

My understand in g is that removing the terminal removes the growth hormones which means the leaves and internode below grow slower than otherwise resulting in smaller leaves and shorter internodes. I do not always get the results that are claimed when doing this so it may even be another of the bonsai myths or maybe just not as effective as sometimes claimed.
Wiring and bending trident is not much affected by time of year however wiring is very much easier with no leaves to get in the way so I tend to trim and wire after leaves drop. Just need to ensure wires are removed before those shoots thicken through late spring and summer.
Wiring with leaves is just as effective albeit tedious. Again, growing shoots thicken quickly so monitor wires regularly or risk unsightly spiral scars.
Very young, green shoots can be wired and will set within a few weeks.
I tend to develop tridents through pruning and only use wires to redirect shoots were pruning alone won't achieve the results.

You addressed a question I'd thought about. It's okay then to wire the very young green shoots in the spring? They've come in aiming upwards and I don't want to remove them but wondered if I need to wait until they harden off before attempting to wire them. You're saying to go ahead and do it in spring and even during the heat of summer? It will be blazing hot in another month and I wasn't sure if it was okay to have them wired in the heat?

 

[BobbyLane]

You addressed a question I'd thought about. It's okay then to wire the very young green shoots in the spring? They've come in aiming upwards and I don't want to remove them but wondered if I need to wait until they harden off before attempting to wire them. You're saying to go ahead and do it in spring and even during the heat of summer? It will be blazing hot in another month and I wasn't sure if it was okay to have them wired in the heat?

Even better, branches will grow quickly and set quickly, so keep an eye on em as Shibui says. I wire trees through all seasons, wiring with leaves on in summer is tricky at first youll get used to it. wiring young shoots in spring is also a great way to get intricate movement in early.
Like Nike say, just do it.

 

[Katie0317]

With A. palmatums, pinching the central bud essentially ends the extension of that branch for the rest of the growing season... there may be some activation of dormant buds further back on the branch but it's sporadic at best. I've never done this with tridents. My assumption is that, due to trident's inherent strength, they would likely bud back more consistently. If your shohin trident is further along in development and ramification is your goal, pinching may work. It would also make sense to be wiring in winter before the spring push. With my small tridents, I tend to let the buds extend for a bit- read that as 4- 6 internodes depending on the tree- then cut back to two leaves.

It's 11 or 12 yo at best so it's too early to be concerned with ramification. I was doing it based on what I was reading and the advice to pinch the central bud was consistent so I did it. I'll stop but I'm not sure how many more buds I'll see this year. I won't do it next spring and will just let it be. It puts out a lot of leaves so I do keep it from getting congested. I won't worry about ramification until it has more branches. Will just let the new shoots run and develop.
@Shibui, thanks...Didn't know I could wire the thin, new green shoots.

 

[Katie0317]

Even better, branches will grow quickly and set quickly, so keep an eye on em as Shibui says. I wire trees through all seasons, wiring with leaves on in summer is tricky at first youll get used to it. wiring young shoots in spring is also a great way to get intricate movement in early.
Like Nike say, just do it.

Thank you for letting me know that! I've been completely uncertain about what to do with the new shoots pointing upwards. Thanks for the encouragement to wire them now @BobbyLane. Shibui is in a different part of the world so it's nice to get confirmation of that though Shibui has always given solid advice on TM's. Your message came through when I was writing the above.

 

[SeanS]

It's 11 or 12 yo at best so it's too early to be concerned with ramification. I was doing it based on what I was reading and the advice to pinch the central bud was consistent so I did it. I'll stop but I'm not sure how many more buds I'll see this year. I won't do it next spring and will just let it be. It puts out a lot of leaves so I do keep it from getting congested. I won't worry about ramification until it has more branches. Will just let the new shoots run and develop.
@Shibui, thanks...Didn't know I could wire the thin, new green shoots.

The way to get more branches quickly on a trident is to work it during the growing season.

As the new green shoots harden off slightly (you’ll need to figure out when this is, generally when you get 4-6 sets of leaves) you wire them. Once they harden off and the wire just barely starts to bite in you unwire and if the branch in question is as thick as you want it to be you prune it back to the desired length (possibly all the way back to the 1st node). For branches that you want to thicken you don’t prune yet. Then you wait for the pruned branches to grow again, the node(s) behind where you pruned back to will 99% of the time start growing. Now you’ve got 2 new shoots from the 1 branch you pruned back, double the amount of shoots/ramification. Once those new shoots are slightly hardened off you repeat the process. On a healthy tree you can also partially defoliate at the same time as you cut back to encourage more of the remaining buds to start growing shoots instead of just having leaves (which you’ve now removed through partial defoliation).

Rinse and repeat throughout the growing season and you can multiply the number of branches you have in a season by 3-4x depending on the length of your season.

 

[Shibui]

Heat is not an issue for wired branches or even new shoots. I know growers that experience much hotter temps than Florida and have no problem with wires in summer.
Wiring very young shoots can be a challenge but is possible. I tend to wire loosely (cage wiring?) rather than tight on the soft stems. saves broken shoots and allows some space for growth so less marks.
On developing trees I use pruning more than wiring to direct growth. Shoots growing in the wrong direction can be cut just above the base. Usually a cluster of new buds will form where the shoot started and new shoots will grow in all directions. Trim of any going the wrong way and leave the best placed to grow and form your framework.
Allowing shoots to grow 3-6 nodes then cut back to 1 or 2 is standard development pruning and works well to increase ramification.
Note that shohin trees need more care and less pruning for ramification as there's not much space to create ramification. I'd be surprised if an 11/12 year old trident needed more ramification. Should be well into thinning out and pruning back to shorter internodes, especially as you mention it is getting crowded with leaves.

 

[Katie0317]

The way to get more branches quickly on a trident is to work it during the growing season.

As the new green shoots harden off slightly (you’ll need to figure out when this is, generally when you get 4-6 sets of leaves) you wire them. Once they harden off and the wire just barely starts to bite in you unwire and if the branch in question is as thick as you want it to be you prune it back to the desired length (possibly all the way back to the 1st node). For branches that you want to thicken you don’t prune yet. Then you wait for the pruned branches to grow again, the node(s) behind where you pruned back to will 99% of the time start growing. Now you’ve got 2 new shoots from the 1 branch you pruned back, double the amount of shoots/ramification. Once those new shoots are slightly hardened off you repeat the process. On a healthy tree you can also partially defoliate at the same time as you cut back to encourage more of the remaining buds to start growing shoots instead of just having leaves (which you’ve now removed through partial defoliation).

Rinse and repeat throughout the growing season and you can multiply the number of branches you have in a season by 3-4x depending on the length of your season.

This is an extremely helpful guide for moving forward in spring/summer. Thank you for providing a clear explanation of the process. I've been in the dark as to how to go about creating more branches and when to wire. I really appreciate the way you described the process..not talking over my head and explaining it in such a way that's very easy to understand. Thank you again.

 

[Katie0317]

Heat is not an issue for wired branches or even new shoots. I know growers that experience much hotter temps than Florida and have no problem with wires in summer.
Wiring very young shoots can be a challenge but is possible. I tend to wire loosely (cage wiring?) rather than tight on the soft stems. saves broken shoots and allows some space for growth so less marks.
On developing trees I use pruning more than wiring to direct growth. Shoots growing in the wrong direction can be cut just above the base. Usually a cluster of new buds will form where the shoot started and new shoots will grow in all directions. Trim of any going the wrong way and leave the best placed to grow and form your framework.
Allowing shoots to grow 3-6 nodes then cut back to 1 or 2 is standard development pruning and works well to increase ramification.
Note that shohin trees need more care and less pruning for ramification as there's not much space to create ramification. I'd be surprised if an 11/12 year old trident needed more ramification. Should be well into thinning out and pruning back to shorter internodes, especially as you mention it is getting crowded with leaves.

Shibui, I'll read about cage wiring and try it. Good to know about the heat. I've seen small trees with shoots growing in all directions from what looks like the same spot. I don't have that happening yet but I'll try pruning if I don't feel like I can wire in a cluster of new branches. Thanks for sharing that approach. I'm sure I'll use it.

 

[BobbyLane]

You might not find anything on the term cage per say, but its just a matter of wiring thinner, younger shoots more loosely than stronger more established branching. Im aware that on tridents, young shoots can snap when wired too tightly. Sean and Shibui have plenty of experience with Tridents, i'd lap up anything they say.

 

[SeanS]

Sean and Shibui have plenty of experience with Tridents, i'd lap up anything they say.

I wouldn’t go that far, I just have a few that I’ve started from seed and am learning through experience based on the input from those far more experienced and knowledgeable (Shibui included) so I’m happy to share what I’ve learnt