Niwaki Pines

dlayton

Mame
Messages
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Location
Northeast Georgia
USDA Zone
9
So I picked the pines up the other day. I’ve never styled niwaki before so I am curious as to how you all would approach. They were field grow and have been in pots for a couple years. So I’m thinking of leaving them alone for a year to get established. Any thoughts? They are both approximately 4 ft tall.

very curious about the twin trunk and how that should be approached. F74DAE5E-A69B-4CBB-AF67-FAC468FEBEB1.jpeg
 
Nice!!!!!!!!

You’re going to have a ton of fun with these guys!

I also know very little of “Garden Trees”.. but am quite excited to see what you decide to do.
 
So I picked the pines up the other day. I’ve never styled niwaki before so I am curious as to how you all would approach. They were field grow and have been in pots for a couple years. So I’m thinking of leaving them alone for a year to get established. Any thoughts? They are both approximately 4 ft tall.

very curious about the twin trunk and how that should be approached. View attachment 350111
IMG_2919 copy.jpg
 
Nice!!!!!!!!

You’re going to have a ton of fun with these guys!

I also know very little of “Garden Trees”.. but am quite excited to see what you decide to do.
Thanks I know I need to flatten and straighten some of the branches and I may thin some of them out at some point. But they are both "pretty" little things to me right now! I am excited about them too!
 
Those are both great! I don’t normally give any advice, but I’d sure like you to keep us updated.
 
So I picked the pines up the other day. I’ve never styled niwaki before so I am curious as to how you all would approach. They were field grow and have been in pots for a couple years. So I’m thinking of leaving them alone for a year to get established. Any thoughts? They are both approximately 4 ft tall.

very curious about the twin trunk and how that should be approached. View attachment 350111

I'm a bit slow/dense, but you seem to be talking about two separate trees: One with two trunks and another that has only one.

Regarding the 2-trunker:
My basic approach would be to make one trunk shorter than the other. That means cutting the top off one, so I would choose the one with an uglier top and would prune it just above a branch. That branch will, of course, become the top/apex of that trunk. While the initial chop/cut would be flat across the stem, the stub will eventually die back to a slanting line that you will later trim to match. This will take a long long time to bark over, so you would prefer that this scar will be out of sight (to the back as you will most often look at it. There is always the possibility that it doesn't work out as planned. Your only option will then be to hide it with foliage. All you can do is to think this thru before you cut, hope for the best and deal with what actually happens. I cannot see enough of this tree in the pic to be more specific. But no matter, you need to decide.

Regarding the single trunker:
I think all that needs to be done is to reduce the foliage load on top to match what you've got on all the other branches. Maintain this balance every year (in late summer or fall) is about all you've got to do = remove old needles. Over time things will need to be cut back or else your tree will just get bigger.

You can decandle, like with bonsai (even though it might turn into a big job after a while), if you want shorter internodes and/or shorter needles and to stimulate some additional back budding. In your area, the rule of thumb is to do this about 100 days before first frost (which appears to be about 7 Nov) or about the end of July in your location. Doing it earlier, say in early July, will not shorten the needles as much (in other words you can adjust needle size by varying the date you candle prune). Pretty much regardless of timing, the internode lengths are reduced considerably by candle pruning.
 
I'm a bit slow/dense, but you seem to be talking about two separate trees: One with two trunks and another that has only one.

Regarding the 2-trunker:
My basic approach would be to make one trunk shorter than the other. That means cutting the top off one, so I would choose the one with an uglier top and would prune it just above a branch. That branch will, of course, become the top/apex of that trunk. While the initial chop/cut would be flat across the stem, the stub will eventually die back to a slanting line that you will later trim to match. This will take a long long time to bark over, so you would prefer that this scar will be out of sight (to the back as you will most often look at it. There is always the possibility that it doesn't work out as planned. Your only option will then be to hide it with foliage. All you can do is to think this thru before you cut, hope for the best and deal with what actually happens. I cannot see enough of this tree in the pic to be more specific. But no matter, you need to decide.

Regarding the single trunker:
I think all that needs to be done is to reduce the foliage load on top to match what you've got on all the other branches. Maintain this balance every year (in late summer or fall) is about all you've got to do = remove old needles. Over time things will need to be cut back or else your tree will just get bigger.

You can decandle, like with bonsai (even though it might turn into a big job after a while), if you want shorter internodes and/or shorter needles and to stimulate some additional back budding. In your area, the rule of thumb is to do this about 100 days before first frost (which appears to be about 7 Nov) or about the end of July in your location. Doing it earlier, say in early July, will not shorten the needles as much (in other words you can adjust needle size by varying the date you candle prune). Pretty much regardless of timing, the internode lengths are reduced considerably by candle pruning.
Yes. 2 trees. for some reason I couldn't get both pics to attach to the first post. Apologies for not clarifying that. Thanks for the input.

The left trunk, from the pic, is the one that needs to be cut. Would you cut it at that first limb down from the current apex, or got one section lower where there are more branches?

In regards to the other and thinning it to match the rest, I was hoping the rest of the tree would catch up to the top. Am I wrong there or do I need to trim the top of it to balance it first?

Thanks for the help.
 
The left trunk, from the pic, is the one that needs to be cut. Would you cut it at that first limb down from the current apex, or got one section lower where there are more branches?
If that first limb has foliage relatively close to the trunk, yes, That foliage of that uppermost branch will become the new top/apex of that trunk. Further, if I'm unsure I always remove the minimum possible as I can always cut again. It takes a lot of time to grow again.

In regards to the other and thinning it to match the rest, I was hoping the rest of the tree would catch up to the top. Am I wrong there or do I need to trim the top of it to balance it first?
The fact of life with trees is that the strong parts just get stronger (or stronger faster). Foliage and buds (at the base of each leaf/needle bundle = fascicle) produce carbohydrates and auxin. The more of these there are on a stem, the more it grows (thicker). The auxin going down the stem/trunk tends to inhibit growth below and on stems below. So all one can do is to reduce the foliage up above. If you overdo it, the top will eventually become weaker over the course of growing seasons.. In other words, it is a constant iterative process.


You may want to do nothing until next Aug/Sep, say, if you are planting now or in the spring. That auxin from the foliage is what stimulates root growth. Reducing foliage will slow recovery from 'transplant/repotting damage' --> hence wait until you see that it is vigorously growing. Otherwise, you should begin balancing the foliage now.
 
The single trunk tree looks pretty 1 sided. I'd balance that out by removing some of the excess branches and there appears to be a whorl of branches at the top. I'd remove that marked in red to the lower branch right under it marked by the blue arrow. As far as best time to perform this work I have no idea20210121_133403.jpg
 
The single trunk tree looks pretty 1 sided. I'd balance that out by removing some of the excess branches and there appears to be a whorl of branches at the top. I'd remove that marked in red to the lower branch right under it marked by the blue arrow. As far as best time to perform this work I have no ideaView attachment 350225
Thanks, that's what I was thinking too!
 
If that first limb has foliage relatively close to the trunk, yes, That foliage of that uppermost branch will become the new top/apex of that trunk. Further, if I'm unsure I always remove the minimum possible as I can always cut again. It takes a lot of time to grow again.


The fact of life with trees is that the strong parts just get stronger (or stronger faster). Foliage and buds (at the base of each leaf/needle bundle = fascicle) produce carbohydrates and auxin. The more of these there are on a stem, the more it grows (thicker). The auxin going down the stem/trunk tends to inhibit growth below and on stems below. So all one can do is to reduce the foliage up above. If you overdo it, the top will eventually become weaker over the course of growing seasons.. In other words, it is a constant iterative process.


You may want to do nothing until next Aug/Sep, say, if you are planting now or in the spring. That auxin from the foliage is what stimulates root growth. Reducing foliage will slow recovery from 'transplant/repotting damage' --> hence wait until you see that it is vigorously growing. Otherwise, you should begin balancing the foliage now.
I agree with you on everything. I am going to let them grow this year and reassess in the fall! All I plan on doing this spring is try to flatten out some of the branches to get the over all shape of their current state sorted out. I think they will be much better assessed when all limbs are where I want them.
 
The single trunk tree looks pretty 1 sided. I'd balance that out by removing some of the excess branches and there appears to be a whorl of branches at the top. I'd remove that marked in red to the lower branch right under it marked by the blue arrow. As far as best time to perform this work I have no ideaView attachment 350225
I have almost cut that limb 2 or 3 times already! Great minds!
 
So I picked the pines up the other day. I’ve never styled niwaki before so I am curious as to how you all would approach. They were field grow and have been in pots for a couple years. So I’m thinking of leaving them alone for a year to get established. Any thoughts? They are both approximately 4 ft tall.

very curious about the twin trunk and how that should be approached. View attachment 350111
Cool, I've never heard of this type of pine. I think your in the clear to repot if they've been in nursery pots for years. They are probably root bound and you'll need to get them into proper soil asap and then plan on working the shin in a few years.

Imo I think it will be really hard to convincingly work with the double trunk. I seem to naturally gravitate to double trunks.. I don't know why... But their structure, to my eye, does not easily lend to a daughter/mother or twin apex. What I see is an opportunity to deadwood one and therefore have a better taper in the other.
 
The OP and his friends in 50 years time

822c53c149ed4eacce43822982a91474.jpg
 
The OP and his friends in 50 years time

822c53c149ed4eacce43822982a91474.jpg
Haha. Great point. I hope by then I have me some of those cool shoes they wear! Look like the shoes the "foot soldiers" used to wear in the old Ninja Turtle movies!!!

I don't think I am quite there yet!
 
Cool, I've never heard of this type of pine. I think your in the clear to repot if they've been in nursery pots for years. They are probably root bound and you'll need to get them into proper soil asap and then plan on working the shin in a few years.

Imo I think it will be really hard to convincingly work with the double trunk. I seem to naturally gravitate to double trunks.. I don't know why... But their structure, to my eye, does not easily lend to a daughter/mother or twin apex. What I see is an opportunity to deadwood one and therefore have a better taper in the other.
They were root bound in 25 Gallon pots. I spread the roots as much as possible without harming them and they have already been planted in the ground!

The double trunk is... interesting to say the least. I think there are a few different ways to go with it which is why I liked it so! I think it has potential!
 
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