New Zelkova Broom

[leatherback]

Hi All,

I got inspired in @markyscott s thread on ephibara maples where there is a nice broom zelkova.

So.. I have azelkova with a nice long sacrifica branch from last year (About 6ft tall). Connected it to a bamboo stalk to keep it straight, and there you have it.. A 6ft straight trunk by mid spring. Which I will layer later this year. This brings me to wonder what the recommended size ratios are to use; How thick a trunk by a specific height, and how much of the tree is crown. THe last, I think is 1:2 trunkheight vss crown height. But what sort of trunk is needed to make this look good?

I will layer a long stem, plant and let it shoot out without side branches on the first 6 ft, so the question is not relevant for right now. But.. Still.. for planning ..

 

[BobbyLane]

looks promising mate, great start.....

might i suggest the following formula

 

[Adair M]

Hi All,

I got inspired in @markyscott s thread on ephibara maples where there is a nice broom zelkova.

So.. I have azelkova with a nice long sacrifica branch from last year (About 6ft tall). Connected it to a bamboo stalk to keep it straight, and there you have it.. A 6ft straight trunk by mid spring. Which I will layer later this year. This brings me to wonder what the recommended size ratios are to use; How thick a trunk by a specific height, and how much of the tree is crown. THe last, I think is 1:2 trunkheight vss crown height. But what sort of trunk is needed to make this look good?

I will layer a long stem, plant and let it shoot out without side branches on the first 6 ft, so the question is not relevant for right now. But.. Still.. for planning ..


View attachment 237415

I suggest to go to Google, type in “zelkova bonsai”, then click “images”. Scroll down and you will see lots of trees. Some you will like, and some you will.

Try to make your tree look like those you like!

 

[leatherback]

@Adair M fair suggestion but that I of course did. I was just hoping to use the collective knowledge of this site to give me some bearing on what would be reasonable to shoot for.

 

[BobbyLane]

man, it varies from tree to tree and i agree a lot of it is down to what you like and what you want the final height of the tree to be.....take these images from the web

they all have varied trunk to canopy height ratios, they all work and they all look great.

the last tree probably has the tallest trunk of them all before it breaks into branches, still it looks very natural. the height of its crown is less than the height of its trunk.

images 2 and 4 have shorter stouter trunks, if you said the trunk height of those two was approx 6in high then the height of the crowns alone is considerably taller, maybe 11 or 12in. on the fourth image the height of crown is probably more than twice the height of the trunk.

to my eye they all have varied ratios and i would be happy to own either

if you were to cut down your tree to 6in and had a crown height of 6in it would look great. the width then comes down to proportions and what looks right

Zelkova Tree, Botapsa TempleTemple by Robert Koehler, on Flickr
a zelkova by tsurane, on Flickr

 

[cmeg1]

I had a tricky time ground layering trunks older than 2nd season
Maybe someone else has had better success.

 

[BobbyLane]

i remember when i chopped this hornbeam, to around 6in, i knew that if i had a final height of around 12-14 it would just work
IMG_7374 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

 

[leatherback]

OK. So.. I should just do whatever feels right. 25 year plan, I suppose..:

3 inch trunk.
1 ft tall trunk
1 - 1 1/2 ft tall and wide canopy.

Lets start with the trunk, and see you in 4-6 years when I chop it

 

[cmeg1]

4-6 years

I would guess 3 yrs at most for 3”

 

[Smoke]

I'll tell you what @leatherback I am going to be starting one also. Zelcova is a species that I do not have for Shohin. I feel they make great trees and do well here in my climate. I have a little head start, but we can post together later and you can follow along as I prune and choose.

I like this look for a zelcova. While the brooms look nice, I just feel they have been overdone and everyone seems to have one or two at an exhibit. What you don't see is gnarly spreading oak styles like they grow. That's what I want.



So I started with this disaster in a can. It is a zelcova and not very vigorous due to the can being a brick. I'll start a new thread from here. Keep in mind the sippy cup is a watering can.

 

[Adair M]

I'll tell you what @leatherback I am going to be starting one also. Zelcova is a species that I do not have for Shohin. I feel they make great trees and do well here in my climate. I have a little head start, but we can post together later and you can follow along as I prune and choose.

I like this look for a zelcova. While the brooms look nice, I just feel they have been overdone and everyone seems to have one or two at an exhibit. What you don't see is gnarly spreading oak styles like they grow. That's what I want.

View attachment 237460

So I started with this disaster in a can. It is a zelcova and not very vigorous due to the can being a brick. I'll start a new thread from here. Keep in mind the sippy cup is a watering can.

View attachment 237461

Smoke, if you notice, that tree has its long, low spreading branches supported by poles. Othwise they would have broken off.

Zelkova does have another natural form, the “center line broom”. The style has a central trunk, with lots and lots of branches coming off the trunk. So there’s not the “1-2-back branch” thing. The overall canopy is full like the traditional broom.

 

[Smoke]

Smoke, if you notice, that tree has its long, low spreading branches supported by poles. Othwise they would have broken off.

Zelkova does have another natural form, the “center line broom”. The style has a central trunk, with lots and lots of branches coming off the trunk. So there’s not the “1-2-back branch” thing. The overall canopy is full like the traditional broom.

Could you do me a favor and show me some pictures in nature where they grow like that? Make sure they have that finely groomed top too that looks like a fan

Who said anything about “1-2-back branch” thing. Not me.

 

[Smoke]

Smoke, if you notice, that tree has its long, low spreading branches supported by poles. Othwise they would have broken off.

Thank you, I'll keep that in mind when they get twenty feet from the shohin pot!!!

Ever think of starting a comedy show? You could call it the "Mr. Obvious Show"

 

[Smoke]

That zelcova sitting on top of my BBQ next to my watering can is EXACTLY how zelcova's grow. I know cause this one has been in a can for about 12 years.


This will never be a broom, nor a centerline broom, nor a 1,2 back branch Moyogi or any other stupid style you wish to affix to it unless we make it that.

I wish this to look like a tree, comprende?

 

[Smoke]

I guess I could go out and buy one already finished though.....

 

[Adair M]

Could you do me a favor and show me some pictures in nature where they grow like that? Make sure they have that finely groomed top too that looks like a fan

Who said anything about “1-2-back branch” thing. Not me.

Well, here are a couple examples:





Hey, it’s your tree. You can grow it out any way you like! But I don’t know why you would want to grow a zelkova to look like an oak! You want an oak, grow an oak! There’s tons of beautiful California oaks! Zelkova tend to have that base shape to them. Doing it any other way is fighting their natural tendency. I have no idea how your zelkova came to be the way it is. Something happened to it.

But, you can get all pissed at me for whatever reason you want. I’m not the one fighting Mother Nature!

 

[cmeg1]

I must admit,I have been enjoying making zelkova look like ‘trees’ lately.
And whatever tree I grow that shows strong tendencies towards Broom will be a broom....hopefully.
Just google Trees Winter Silouette and look at the images tab....truly inspiring.
It is my inspiration for a lot of young Zelkova Bonsai to be’s.
Here is a picture,for some reason could not link it

 

[Smoke]

But, you can get all pissed at me for whatever reason you want. I’m not the one fighting Mother Nature!

Now I've heard it all. You taking all your meds lately?

Everything, at least I do, in bonsai is fighting Mother Nature. Thats a weak reply. I feel like I'm argueing with Will Heath again.

How about you just respect what I do, and I'll respect what you do. I have no reason to go and try to come in your threads and school you. I wasn't bothering anyone in this thread, why the need to come here and try to show everyone how great you are? I am fully capable of making my trees the way I want. I have plenty of documentation here on how I develop trees.

 

[Smoke]

@leatherback

I am truely sorry this thread has become so messed up. It was not my intention to have someone come here and start a pissing match about how to make trees.

I will not make any more replies here. I have put Adair back on ignore, it seems he can't curb his tongue and would rather talk alot but never buy a piece of shit and turn it into something. I guess those that can, do, and those that can't talk smack about those that can.

Al out.

 

[Adair M]

Sorry, Al, it was not my intent to start an argument. But have a conversation.

My point of discussion was not about the material you were working with, but the tree you chose as your model. It’s just not a typical zelkova.

But, whatever.

Since you prefer I not bother you, I’ll ignore your threads.

Peace.