Neglected Japanese white pine

[RaginCajun]

I bought this Japanese white pine from a friend that bought it from Brussels after it was imported by Brussel Martin years ago, he did okay with building ramifications on all the branches, but not so well selecting branches. There's bars all the way up. Attached are photos before and after I wired it. Looking to select branches now. Advice is welcome as is wiring critique, I definitely need to practice more wiring. I used soft copper wire on the branches and aluminum wire for the guy wires

 

[Japonicus]

Very nice tree to be had. When did you get it?
I would begin the branch selection with one branch at a time (1/yr)
and thin needles on the branches to remove later.
After having a 'Brocade' JBP and an EWP that shed other branches when I removed
as little as one at a time, I would approach it gingerly myself. That darn brocade dropped 2
other branches when I jinned one, so now it's pretty stupid ugly.

 

[RaginCajun]

Very nice tree to be had. When did you get it?
I would begin the branch selection with one branch at a time (1/yr)
and thin needles on the branches to remove later.
After having a 'Brocade' JBP and an EWP that shed other branches when I removed
as little as one at a time, I would approach it gingerly myself. That darn brocade dropped 2
other branches when I jinned one, so now it's pretty stupid ugly.

I got it December 2022. I haven't done much to it, I did remove one large branch at the front, you can see the knob and sap stain. and some obviously unwanted stuff earlier in the spring. And I pinched back candles when it was time. It's early fall now so I wired it down hoping to get some back budding. It's very healthy and has been vigorous all year. I'm not sure which cultivar this one is. It's pretty old, the bark is starting to form

 

[Japonicus]

Fall is when the needle sheaths drop. It's a subtle thing.
Unless you just really love wiring
its unfortunate that these need to be continually wired, but the branches spring up in no time when not wired.

 

[RaginCajun]

Fall is when the needle sheaths drop. It's a subtle thing.
Unless you just really love wiring
its unfortunate that these need to be continually wired, but the branches spring up in no time when not wired.

I have been following bjorns videos on white pines. He's the closest artist to me that has experience with white pines. Similar climates. I thought about pulling the old needles but they will be falling on their own really soon. With all the wiring I did to it and the light pruning as well I didn't feel comfortable pulling the old needles at the same time, I'm still babying it lol. Learning it before I do anything that'll hurt it or make me regret it. I knew the old needles would fall soon so I left them. I left around 8-12 clusters on each new candle when I pinched them.

 

[Scorpius]

Very nice tree to be had. When did you get it?
I would begin the branch selection with one branch at a time (1/yr)
and thin needles on the branches to remove later.
After having a 'Brocade' JBP and an EWP that shed other branches when I removed
as little as one at a time, I would approach it gingerly myself. That darn brocade dropped 2
other branches when I jinned one, so now it's pretty stupid ugly.

Try Hayabusa. The fussiest of my corkers to even keep alive and happy.

 

[RaginCajun]

Try Hayabusa. The fussiest of my corkers to even keep alive and happy.

I have a yatsubusa white pine that came in with a crappy graft. It's nothing worth showing yet. Just applied some movement to the trunk and growing it right now. Gonna put it in the ground in spring.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I got it December 2022. I haven't done much to it, I did remove one large branch at the front, you can see the knob and sap stain. and some obviously unwanted stuff earlier in the spring. And I pinched back candles when it was time. It's early fall now so I wired it down hoping to get some back budding. It's very healthy and has been vigorous all year. I'm not sure which cultivar this one is. It's pretty old, the bark is starting to form

Wow. Great challenge here! There are a lot of moving parts here.

Considering the photos and write up I’d recommend you save this tree for a fall workshop with a professional.

I inherited a JWP five years ago that was a similar challenge. It took me four years to get it super strong and backbudding. After doing a couple reductions, pushing back foliage, and a major branch removal, the tree was saved for a Todd Schlafer workshop came to club. After six hours of wiring, bending and adjusting a much better tree arose.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[RaginCajun]

I know! It's hard to decide which branches to remove lol. They are all well developed.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

My initial thought is the tree has to be pushed in to grow out.

Also it may need to lose some height.

Btw: Curious. Can you tell me what was meant by ‘pinched back at the appropriate time’.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[RaginCajun]

I waited for all the candles to to extend, and then broke them a little less than half just before the new needles hardened off.Everything started to bud out in early February here this yr, about a month earlier than usual. I pinched the candles in June. Leaving behind about 8-12 needle clusters on each new candle.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Try this, this method works incredibly well for all our single flush trees. Courtesy Bonsai Mirai, Julian Adams etc etc.

Do not fertilize in spring!

1. As longest candles extend (they’ll be first), pinch these off at the level of the smallest. Be sure to leave at least 4-6 needle bundles. Goal is for final extension to stay even in length to the old needle bundle silhouette.

Adjust as needed as long as the minimum # needle bundles are kept. At first a couple will need to extend a bit outside the silhouette. Keep the faith.

2. As medium candles extend pinch these off at the level of the smallest. (Same about needle bundles) Same goal.

3. Left small candles extend, but keep even with the silhouette.

4. Do not pluck needles. That’s a JBP/JRP technique. If one does it cuts down the backbud response.

5. After all candles have extended and adjusted. Foliage can be pushed back now. First year be conservative. Keep enough green to build solid momentum each year. Adjust in fall as needed.

6. After needles harden off begin fertilization. We fertilize lightly through the winter until the candles push. Some folks don’t

Do this each year. This process will evenly spread the energy throughout the tree. Backbudding will occur, foliage will increase, Needle size will decrease.

Good Luck! I’ll be looking forward to seeing your future posts.
DSD sends

 

[RaginCajun]

Try this, this method works incredibly well for all our single flush trees. Courtesy Bonsai Mirai, Julian Adams etc etc.

Do not fertilize in spring!

1. As longest candles extend (they’ll be first), pinch these off at the level of the smallest. Be sure to leave at least 4-6 needle bundles. Goal is for final extension to stay even in length to the old needle bundle silhouette.

Adjust as needed as long as the minimum # needle bundles are kept. At first a couple will need to extend a bit outside the silhouette. Keep the faith.

2. As medium candles extend pinch these off at the level of the smallest. (Same about needle bundles) Same goal.

3. Left small candles extend, but keep even with the silhouette.

4. Do not pluck needles. That’s a JBP/JRP technique. If one does it cuts down the backbud response.

5. After all candles have extended and adjusted. Foliage can be pushed back now. First year be conservative. Keep enough green to build solid momentum each year. Adjust in fall as needed.

6. After needles harden off begin fertilization. We fertilize lightly through the winter until the candles push. Some folks don’t

Do this each year. This process will evenly spread the energy throughout the tree. Backbudding will occur, foliage will increase, Needle size will decrease.

Good Luck! I’ll be looking forward to seeing your future posts.
DSD sends

Thank you for your help. What are you using to fertilize your pines? And for systemics? I use bonide infuse for systemic fungicide and some form of imidacloprid for systemic insecticide. Once I decandle the first push on my black pines and pinch back the single flush pines I have, I've been using acid lovers as a slow release, fish emulsion once a week. super tea soil conditioner made from kelp, fish, worm castings, etc.. once a month or once every other month. This coming year I'm going to use acid lovers in tea bags with Micromax and ironite.ill reload the organic fertilizer as needed and just dose the Micromax and ironite once in the spring. And continue with the fish emulsion once a week. I've used dynagro with protekt before but stick with organics mostly. I purchased Julian's book on pines and also the master class series on junipers and pines from Stone lantern. Bjorn has some good videos on single flush pines and he's fairly close to me.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thank you for your help. What are you using to fertilize your pines?

You are most welcome.

We use a two level fertilization. Osmocote Plus every 2.5 - 3 months and Miracid + Humic Acid + Kelp + CalMag every 2-3 weeks except when it’s too hot ( above 90F).

And for systemics? I use bonide infuse for systemic fungicide and some form of imidacloprid for systemic insecticide.

We do not use systemics except for azaleas which we use imidicloprid after blooming for lace bugs. Also use copper fungicide 3x during dormancy and 1-2x during the year. H202 3% 2 TBSP/Qt H2O solution as needed.

Once I decandle the first push on my black pines and pinch back the single flush pines I have, I've been using acid lovers as a slow release, fish emulsion once a week. super tea soil conditioner made from kelp, fish, worm castings, etc.. once a month or once every other month. This coming year I'm going to use acid lovers in tea bags with Micromax and ironite.ill reload the organic fertilizer as needed and just dose the Micromax and ironite once in the spring. And continue with the fish emulsion once a week. I've used dynagro with protekt before but stick with organics mostly.

That’s a lot of ferts for us. Is it to make up for a rhizospheric deficiency? I’d think about working to simplify. Wondering what media the trees are in?

I purchased Julian's book on pines

It’s a decent book.

and also the master class series on junipers and pines from Stone lantern. Bjorn has some good videos on single flush pines and he's fairly close to me.

You might consider joining Bonsai Mirai? There is a dazzling array of data there of value. Also if you’re are interested consider looking at Bonsai Empire courses for technique info. Bjorn gives many of the lectures, but there are many other artists involved.

If you have any other questions, please PM me as we shouldn’t clog up the main purpose of your thread.

Best
DSD sends

 

[Potawatomi13]

You might consider joining Bonsai Mirai? There is a dazzling array of data there of great value

Seconded strongly.

 

[RaginCajun]

You are most welcome.

We use a two level fertilization. Osmocote Plus every 2.5 - 3 months and Miracid + Humic Acid + Kelp + CalMag every 2-3 weeks except when it’s too hot ( above 90F).

We do not use systemics except for azaleas which we use imidicloprid after blooming for lace bugs. Also use copper fungicide 3x during dormancy and 1-2x during the year. H202 3% 2 TBSP/Qt H2O solution as needed.

That’s a lot of ferts for us. Is it to make up for a rhizospheric deficiency? I’d think about working to simplify. Wondering what media the trees are in?

It’s a decent book.

You might consider joining Bonsai Mirai? There is a dazzling array of data there of value. Also if you’re are interested consider looking at Bonsai Empire courses for technique info. Bjorn gives many of the lectures, but there are many other artists involved.

If you have any other questions, please PM me as we shouldn’t clog up the main purpose of your thread.

Best
DSD sends

 

[RaginCajun]

Cheap White Pumice on the bottom. , kiryu,akadama, black lava, and a little fir bark for the main soil and I even take the time to sift the grain size out and pot in layers, largest grain on the bottom, smallest grain at the top for drainage. At least that's what they say, I'm not smart enough to know for sure but the experts say it makes a difference, so I do it.
I use the acid lovers because it's good stuff and it's cheap, I've compared it's label to stuff like tamahi or biogold, I'd say acid lovers is better because it's loaded with different mychorriza which helps a lot with pines after treating with a systemic fungicide... Its important here in Louisiana, it's hot, wet and humid.. fungus is a major problem here. I use the soil conditioner just to maintain and/or build soil health. There's a farm in Tennessee I get the stuff from, it's cheap and it's really good. I will mix a little with fish emulsion and feed everything with it. foliar feed the junipers with it once in a while, they love it!!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Cheap White Pumice on the bottom. , kiryu,akadama, black lava, and a little fir bark for the main soil and I even take the time to sift the grain size out and pot in layers, largest grain on the bottom, smallest grain at the top for drainage. At least that's what they say, I'm not smart enough to know for sure but the experts say it makes a difference, so I do it.

I can just tell you what I have been taught by numerous folks.

Sifting is good.

Larger particle drainage layer should be thin, enough to cover the bottom of the pot, and a little more. After that use media of same particle size.

Only reason to use larger drainage layer is to create a higher perched water table, essentially making the pot smaller. If pot are sized appropriately, one doesn’t need this. Perhaps cascade in thinner pot might have a bit larger, but nowadays cascades are avoiding this sort of tiny narrow pot due to drying out quickly.

Just a thought, one thing you might think about adding to your media is 5% Biochar or horticultural charcoal. Our tests are showing trees and garden plants that are healthy and robust.

I use the acid lovers because it's good stuff and it's cheap, I've compared it's label to stuff like tamahi or biogold,

Please be sure to buy a product because it’s the right product for the tree itself.

btw: I always wonder, how much fertilizer etc do our trees really need? We’ve been doing some trials to puzzle this out. Seems not a lot. Ryan Neil is doing something much more involved with a couple soil scientists.

I'd say acid lovers is better because it's loaded with different mychorriza which helps a lot with pines after treating with a systemic fungicide...

Not familiar with this product, but thinking this through… doesn’t the systemic fungicide just kill off the added mycorrhizae… and any other fungi in the tree and the media for a long time?

It’s important here in Louisiana, it's hot, wet and humid.. fungus is a major problem here.

Yep. One question I think about that I don’t know the answer to… are there any healthy native trees there? If so, what’s different about these trees vs others?

I use the soil conditioner just to maintain and/or build soil health. There's a farm in Tennessee I get the stuff from, it's cheap and it's really good. I will mix a little with fish emulsion and feed everything with it. foliar feed the junipers with it once in a while, they love it!!

Ok, I apologize if the answers above are cryptic or what not. You are free to try whatever. They are your trees. My experience is keep the added stuff to the minimum possible to keep the tree healthy and robust.

Good Luck
DSD sends