Need help with some oaks

[Diolated]

Can please post some pics and something to see size? There are 3 Q. rubra in my collection also but only about 4 years old. Biggest is starting to take shape. Below link to most excellent huge leafed Oak Bonsai.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Daimyo_Oak,_GSBF-CN_115,_September_12,_2008.jpg)

I'll snap a couple shots if the pile of snow we got this past weekend melts...sometimes around here, the snow doesn't leave until April after it falls. Yours looks great!

 

[SU2]

Am in a similar situation as OP and hoping for advice on collecting an oak I just found this evening, need to double-check it to see if it's a Live or Laurel oak, but hoping someone (especially @rockm!) could tell me if my approach is correct: found the tree (~2" thick trunk, first primary branch at maybe 6" from the ground, very healthy-looking / not dormant), cut it back to the first branch, trenched/cut roots, watered heavily and left it there.

If I'm remembering correctly, the best approach from here would be to wait until spring, when buds have formed but haven't broken (unsure how this truism applies to something that's already growing, waiting for something to set buds in spring seems like it'd only apply to something that'd been dormant...), and collect then, ideally after a week of going and watering daily to encourage more feeder-roots beneath the trunk.

Would love to know what to alter in my approach (and why, of course ), I wanted to get it today when doing the prep work and thought "well, you're supposed to collect deciduous in winter" but am not thinking that applies here, not to a tree that's looking good / not dormant (if I'm wrong I'd happily go dig it up tomorrow, or maybe after a couple weeks of daily waterings to promote better rooting under the trunk (IME the problem w/ collecting oaks is their lack of feeder roots at their base and they just don't grow roots vigorously like some other specie))

Can get a pic if it'd help but it's now around 1' tall (I left it taller than needed for die-back and leverage when collection time comes), if it were ilex/bougie/crape I *know* I could collect today but I've only gotten 1 oak to survive so far (am at 2mo, I think it's survived!) so want to be sure I'm doing everything exactly right! If I could go back to my interventions today I'd have gotten under it and checked its tap-root, I think it may actually be worth going back and opening-up my trench so I can get at the tap-root, just afraid it'd be such a drastic move that I'd kill the thing...

Thanks for any tips on this one, it's not just an oak for the sake of getting an oak (like my current one), it actually seems like solid stock, so really want to be sure to get this!! (Oh and if anyone knows whether Live / Laurel oaks are harder than the other to collect, it'd be very useful to know! Am trying to start collecting native trees that aren't bougies/crapes!)

 

[Potawatomi13]

Would expect "normal" collect time of after leaf drop or just before bud break would work. In very cold climate latter might be best.
Aftercare makes all of difference. Once got a Quercus stellata shipped from eastern states. Poorly wrapped dried bare roots, long leafed sprout wilted(shipped in mid April). Trimmed sprout to 2/3 leaves, cut obvious dead roots and potted. Grew very little but survived. Was ALL about aftercare.

 

[rockm]

Am in a similar situation as OP and hoping for advice on collecting an oak I just found this evening, need to double-check it to see if it's a Live or Laurel oak, but hoping someone (especially @rockm!) could tell me if my approach is correct: found the tree (~2" thick trunk, first primary branch at maybe 6" from the ground, very healthy-looking / not dormant), cut it back to the first branch, trenched/cut roots, watered heavily and left it there.

If I'm remembering correctly, the best approach from here would be to wait until spring, when buds have formed but haven't broken (unsure how this truism applies to something that's already growing, waiting for something to set buds in spring seems like it'd only apply to something that'd been dormant...), and collect then, ideally after a week of going and watering daily to encourage more feeder-roots beneath the trunk.

Would love to know what to alter in my approach (and why, of course ), I wanted to get it today when doing the prep work and thought "well, you're supposed to collect deciduous in winter" but am not thinking that applies here, not to a tree that's looking good / not dormant (if I'm wrong I'd happily go dig it up tomorrow, or maybe after a couple weeks of daily waterings to promote better rooting under the trunk (IME the problem w/ collecting oaks is their lack of feeder roots at their base and they just don't grow roots vigorously like some other specie))

Can get a pic if it'd help but it's now around 1' tall (I left it taller than needed for die-back and leverage when collection time comes), if it were ilex/bougie/crape I *know* I could collect today but I've only gotten 1 oak to survive so far (am at 2mo, I think it's survived!) so want to be sure I'm doing everything exactly right! If I could go back to my interventions today I'd have gotten under it and checked its tap-root, I think it may actually be worth going back and opening-up my trench so I can get at the tap-root, just afraid it'd be such a drastic move that I'd kill the thing...

Thanks for any tips on this one, it's not just an oak for the sake of getting an oak (like my current one), it actually seems like solid stock, so really want to be sure to get this!! (Oh and if anyone knows whether Live / Laurel oaks are harder than the other to collect, it'd be very useful to know! Am trying to start collecting native trees that aren't bougies/crapes!)

Most likely a live oak (quercus virginiana). Live oaks mostly drop old leaves in the spring as new growth pushes them off (they can also drop leaves in the fall, but usually retain a lot, if not most, of them. They do have dormancy in winter. Growth on mine begins in mid-February, when leaf buds open.

If the tree has have pushed new leaves, I'd think it would be best to let it set until the next opportunity when it's not growing. With live oaks that can mean summertime, as the heat pushes many southern tree species into a shallow period of dormancy.

Zach Smith may be a better teacher here, as he collects live oak regularly and lives further south.

FWIW, worrying about where the first branch is on a deciduous tree that is to be collected is futile. You will most likely remove ALL branching and regrow it. I've found that live oaks are extremely vigorous, BTW.

 

[Zach Smith]

As for collecting Live oak, it's a crap shoot. Wild specimens are not that easy to lift successfully, though I have done it. A few years ago I dug some that had been planted as landscape specimens that a friend no longer wanted. All but one survived. They were dug in January. Dormancy for Live oak is lack of growth, since the leaves remain green and on the tree. Where I am they change leaves in March. I would imagine collecting in late February would be ideal, but that's just speculation.

 

[PaulH]

I've had good success collecting live oaks, Q. agrifolia and Q wislizenii. I've found that it helps to completely defoliate the tree at collection and collect in late spring, around Easter. I plant them in as small a container as possible in standard lava, akadama, pumice mix

 

[SU2]

Would expect "normal" collect time of after leaf drop or just before bud break would work. In very cold climate latter might be best.
Aftercare makes all of difference. Once got a Quercus stellata shipped from eastern states. Poorly wrapped dried bare roots, long leafed sprout wilted(shipped in mid April). Trimmed sprout to 2/3 leaves, cut obvious dead roots and potted. Grew very little but survived. Was ALL about aftercare.

But what about when they don't drop their leaves? We're at our coldest point right now and while some have, most haven't - crapes are like 50/50 growing/dormant in my area but haven't seen many oaks going dormant at all, they seem to have just slowed growth (not even as slowed as some faster stuff like bougies, surely that's because oaks don't mind the cold as much)

When you say later might be better, do you mean later into the cold period or later, in spring, when 'spring flushes' are occurring? Am unsure how to even know the latter w/ certainty because, if they're actively growing through winter, there's no discreet "spring bud swell & break"... and if you mean the former, well, right now may be it - Jan is the coldest month of the year and it's half-way through so thinking now is 'peak winter' as far as the local trees will experience.

When you say aftercare, could you list some of the important things you think may not be so obvious? I'm careful w/ my roots, keep them moist & aerated until containerizing them, and I always cut-back the roots just a 1/4" from where I cut when collecting, so that I've got freshly-cut ends to smear w/ IBA powder. I then place in containers w/ bonsai soil and water it in (have always felt I had better luck w/ watering-in than w/ the chopstick method, for settling-in substrate)

 

[SU2]

Most likely a live oak (quercus virginiana). Live oaks mostly drop old leaves in the spring as new growth pushes them off (they can also drop leaves in the fall, but usually retain a lot, if not most, of them. They do have dormancy in winter. Growth on mine begins in mid-February, when leaf buds open.

If the tree has have pushed new leaves, I'd think it would be best to let it set until the next opportunity when it's not growing. With live oaks that can mean summertime, as the heat pushes many southern tree species into a shallow period of dormancy.

Zach Smith may be a better teacher here, as he collects live oak regularly and lives further south.

FWIW, worrying about where the first branch is on a deciduous tree that is to be collected is futile. You will most likely remove ALL branching and regrow it. I've found that live oaks are extremely vigorous, BTW.

Thanks a ton, very very informative reply

Yeah the Live and Laurel oaks here still have most of their leaves - cannot say I recall seeing any leaf-drop during the summertime last year though, I was trying (unsuccessfully) to collect them then and they'd drop their leaves quickly once collected...maybe there was a time I missed though, certainly very possible, will ask some locals about leaf-drop - let's say that they don't drop leaves, what then? Would it be better to do when they're closest-to-dormant in the middle of winter?(you say they *do* have dormancy - I thought leaves had to fall, and growth fully halt, for something to be truly dormant?) Or would the closest, good time be in spring as old leaves are falling / new ones are growing?

And just to be on the same page, the truly optimal time is fall, after our rainy summer has started to cease frequency of rain, when there's maximal feeder roots right under the trunk, right? This was advice given to me by a known practitioner in my area (known in the bonsai community, just happens to live a few hours from me)

I collected 2 oaks today, just random ones that I had to move because they were in the way of a new garden bed I was making (not mine), anyways one I trunk-chopped so it's just a stump, the other had been trunk-chopped maybe a month or two ago by the looks of it (had several new, thin shoots), I collected that one w/ its new shoots - am I wasting my time to even pot them? They weren't pre-treated (root trenching, watering, anything) before-hand, they were just stock that had to be removed and would've been tossed - I've got the containers/substrate if there's some (~1/4th) chance to make it worth IBA'ing and containerizing them, would really like your thoughts on whether it's a waste of time to do so! (they're both currently in bags, moist, in a warmer-than-outside patio, collected ~30min ago)

 

[SU2]

I've had good success collecting live oaks, Q. agrifolia and Q wislizenii. I've found that it helps to completely defoliate the tree at collection and collect in late spring, around Easter. I plant them in as small a container as possible in standard lava, akadama, pumice mix

Late spring? Damn, so now I've heard pretty much every time of year!! What zone are you in? Do you rinse the roots or leave the natural soil on?(I'd be planting in bonsai substrate, I just mean whether to use the hose on the roots before putting in the substrate)

Do you use IBA? And re defoliation- today I collected (2) oaks (live or laurel, would have to go double-check what's what), one was trunk-chopped so obviously cannot be defoliated, the other was trunk-chopped a couple months ago and now has a couple ~1.5' long shoots with healthy leaves, I'd have thought to leave them on - would you defoliate that entirely? I feel like I should at least leave the top few leaves on the shoot so that I don't interfere w/ auxin production....

 

[SU2]

As for collecting Live oak, it's a crap shoot. Wild specimens are not that easy to lift successfully, though I have done it. A few years ago I dug some that had been planted as landscape specimens that a friend no longer wanted. All but one survived. They were dug in January. Dormancy for Live oak is lack of growth, since the leaves remain green and on the tree. Where I am they change leaves in March. I would imagine collecting in late February would be ideal, but that's just speculation.

Thank you so much for replying, fantastic to have someone from my zone (or close I would guess!) w/ experience w/ this specific oak specie(s)!! Firstly, are Live or Laurel better to go for? They seem equally abundant in my area...

How many were there, total, in that Jan dig? I actually just got a 2nd one today lol, wanted to check the thread before potting them (will be doing that after submitting this!), very fascinating - and super important to me because I'd still not found this despite lots of asking - to know that 'lack of growth' **is** dormancy!! Being in a semi-tropical area, and trying to get a feel for what I can collect and when (both what's "acceptable/may survive" and what's "optimal"), has me having made at least 5 threads on multiple boards, leading to a text-document w/ so much info, but lots of parts contradict others, or at least don't seem in-keeping with the sentiment of others... Would love if you could give me a quick run-down of the optimal times for some of the more common species like privet, podocarpus or, even better, what specie you think I should pursue? I've got >50 trees, almost all are bougies, most of the rest are crapes, because they were the only things I could get to survive when starting (I started in earnest last spring...), I really want to increase my variety but just kept getting failures...I've got 1 oak that's still alive at 2mo right now, an ilex that survived a collection ~3wks ago, and a gnarly royal poinciana collected ~3mo ago - I need variety and am really just interested in yamadori, any species you could recommend for our general region would be greatly appreciated, with how varied the 'optimal' times for various species' collection-dates are, I feel like I should be able to be collecting year-round, if only I knew what to get and when..

For the Oak I'd originally asked about I'll wait til february, I know it's just your speculation but sounds solid and in-line with what I'd read (ie right when the first spring-flush is starting which should be in-step with the current leaves falling-off) It's been trenched, will do 1-2wks of daily waterings before collection to be sure, and see what happens!

 

[Zach Smith]

Thank you so much for replying, fantastic to have someone from my zone (or close I would guess!) w/ experience w/ this specific oak specie(s)!! Firstly, are Live or Laurel better to go for? They seem equally abundant in my area...

How many were there, total, in that Jan dig? I actually just got a 2nd one today lol, wanted to check the thread before potting them (will be doing that after submitting this!), very fascinating - and super important to me because I'd still not found this despite lots of asking - to know that 'lack of growth' **is** dormancy!! Being in a semi-tropical area, and trying to get a feel for what I can collect and when (both what's "acceptable/may survive" and what's "optimal"), has me having made at least 5 threads on multiple boards, leading to a text-document w/ so much info, but lots of parts contradict others, or at least don't seem in-keeping with the sentiment of others... Would love if you could give me a quick run-down of the optimal times for some of the more common species like privet, podocarpus or, even better, what specie you think I should pursue? I've got >50 trees, almost all are bougies, most of the rest are crapes, because they were the only things I could get to survive when starting (I started in earnest last spring...), I really want to increase my variety but just kept getting failures...I've got 1 oak that's still alive at 2mo right now, an ilex that survived a collection ~3wks ago, and a gnarly royal poinciana collected ~3mo ago - I need variety and am really just interested in yamadori, any species you could recommend for our general region would be greatly appreciated, with how varied the 'optimal' times for various species' collection-dates are, I feel like I should be able to be collecting year-round, if only I knew what to get and when..

For the Oak I'd originally asked about I'll wait til february, I know it's just your speculation but sounds solid and in-line with what I'd read (ie right when the first spring-flush is starting which should be in-step with the current leaves falling-off) It's been trenched, will do 1-2wks of daily waterings before collection to be sure, and see what happens!

Your questions are fairly broad, but I'll try to summarize as best I can. First of all, the January dig I did only amounted to four or five Live oaks. Not a lot, but considering the survival percentage it was definitely outside my previous experience. I don't lift larger pines or junipers, only deciduous species and a few broadleaf evergreens like privet and yaupon. Essentially all of my collecting is done between January 1 and March 31. This include oaks, Bald cypress, hornbeam, Crape myrtle, hawthorns, hackberry, and elms (American, Winged, Cedar). I wait till May to collect Sweetgums, the survival rate is much higher then. Everything is sawed out of the ground, no trenching or chopping in the field, just lift, chop and pot. All aboveground chops sealed.

 

[SU2]

Your questions are fairly broad, but I'll try to summarize as best I can. First of all, the January dig I did only amounted to four or five Live oaks. Not a lot, but considering the survival percentage it was definitely outside my previous experience. I don't lift larger pines or junipers, only deciduous species and a few broadleaf evergreens like privet and yaupon. Essentially all of my collecting is done between January 1 and March 31. This include oaks, Bald cypress, hornbeam, Crape myrtle, hawthorns, hackberry, and elms (American, Winged, Cedar). I wait till May to collect Sweetgums, the survival rate is much higher then. Everything is sawed out of the ground, no trenching or chopping in the field, just lift, chop and pot. All aboveground chops sealed.

Holy crap I didn't notice you had your own site!?! Will be devouring that tomorrow on my day off

Yes they were fairly broad as, based on your former reply, I knew I wanted to know far more from you than you'd care to type, so I cast a wide net for you to decide what to tell me And thank you, that is an AWESOME post here- the "Essentially all collecting done jan1-mar31" bit is of more value to me than you could ever know, I've been told 'optimal' times for various species that contradict each other all over the place but there were trends and the 'jan-mar' seems to be the sweet-spot for lots of stuff, hearing it phrased that way helped (I was still unsure if it's *always* time for something, and while that may be true if you searched for anomalous species, it's good to know that the 'general, regular time' for our zone is now-->march, that's HUGE for me because just a few weeks ago I still thought winter was a 'do not collect' time (as I'd had so much luck w/ bougies&crapes in the warmth, it seemed collection was something to be done during active growth, not preceding it! Thank you very very much, I was psyched to enter my first full growing-season w/ a bonsai collection, happy with what I've already got, but knowing that the proper time basically *just* started, well, I could easily end up doubling my collection before spring!)

Why don't you lift larger pines/junipers? I don't have anything coniferous yet :/

Am going to have to bone-up on my taxonomy, I thought almost all evergreens were deciduous (and am utterly ignorant about how 'broadleaf' comes into consideration!)

Re Sweetgums, I'm embarrassed to say I'd never heard of them til now....upon googling and seeing how seemingly-ubiquitous they are, I'm thinking that I've been thinking sweetgums were maples (there's several mature ones near me, always thought maple but will find out for sure tomorrow, think they're sweetgums - how do you like them, are they on your higher/lower priority when considering them in relation to others?

Oaks have always been hard/impossible for me; crapes/bougies have been almost guaranteed success....of the species you listed, it would be incredibly appreciated if you could tell me which are closer to bougies/crapes in terms of likelihood-to-survive dramatic collections (I tend towards large stock w/ heavy trunk-chopping), would be so damn grateful

Got the two oaks from today potted, can't believe now's the time am so excited to get a bunch more trees now

I've had good success collecting live oaks, Q. agrifolia and Q wislizenii. I've found that it helps to completely defoliate the tree at collection and collect in late spring, around Easter. I plant them in as small a container as possible in standard lava, akadama, pumice mix

I'm wondering whether it'd be smart/dumb to defoliate if collecting while dormant, since dormancy here still has growth....I defoliated ~6-8 leaves from the shoot on one of my oaks from today, starting from the bottom of course (so the auxin-producing tips stayed intact), came out like this:



And the other didn't have foliage, well actually it did but it was like 4' in the air, someone had 'trunk chopped' it to ~4' tall, it grew ~10 shoots from near its tip at 4' up, so I simply cut it to ~1' (leaving just a stump) and collected that way, am unsure how proper that was for this guy:

 

[PaulH]

What zone are you in?

I'm in 9B. i hose the old soil off before planting. I always defoliate.

 

[SU2]

@Zach Smith I'd completely forgot- royal poincianas? I'm unsure if they're as abundant around you as they are around me but I could find specimen to collect all day (with 5"+ trunks), I've only got one now but have heard mixed reports on how worthwhile they are - would love to hear if your thoughts on them if you collect/know about poincianas!

 

[SU2]

I'm in 9B. i hose the old soil off before planting. I always defoliate.

Ok so you'd pull ever last leaf off the one I pictured then? Can I ask for your reasoning? Am not averse to defoliation, in fact it's my go-to for keeping struggling, collected material alive, I always start low on the shoots and defoliate upwards if the leaves are wilting too-hard....if you're saying to do a full defoliation though I'm curious why, so far as I can tell it'd make sense to at least leave the top 2-3 leaves (the small/supple ones) on any shoot, just for their auxin production)
(to be clear I'm just trying to understand, I've got <1yr under my belt so want to be clear I'm trying to understand, not doubting it works for you - just want to know why is all! It seems some things benefit greatly (bougies *always* seem to benefit from a defoliation, it'll either induce flowering or create new shoots where many of the old nodes had just leafs), while others you don't dare remove any more foliage than you have to, like junipers, because they keep more of their energy in their foliage relatively speaking)

Thanks for the prompt replies btw, and thnx very much for the insights!!

 

[M. Frary]

Am going to have to bone-up on my taxonomy, I thought almost all evergreens were deciduous (and am utterly ignorant about how 'broadleaf' comes into consideration!)

Deciduous trees lose their leaves.
Evergreens don't. Hence the term evergreen.
Broadleaf mainly refers to deciduous trees because the leaves are broad. There are broadleaf evergreens too though. Like boxwood.

 

[Zach Smith]

@Zach Smith I'd completely forgot- royal poincianas? I'm unsure if they're as abundant around you as they are around me but I could find specimen to collect all day (with 5"+ trunks), I've only got one now but have heard mixed reports on how worthwhile they are - would love to hear if your thoughts on them if you collect/know about poincianas!

I'm not aware that that species is native here in South Louisiana. I know they grow in Florida and Texas. Regardless, I've never worked with the species.

Regarding your other question about pines and junipers, well, junipers hate me so I don't really fool with them and frankly I'm not all that excited about them. The only one native here is Eastern red cedar, which for the most part make poor bonsai. As for pines, I've tried working with some natives for the past few years with limited success. Collecting them is more of a challenge, because of the need for more root and that mycorrhiza thing.

 

[SU2]

Deciduous trees lose their leaves.
Evergreens don't. Hence the term evergreen.
Broadleaf mainly refers to deciduous trees because the leaves are broad. There are broadleaf evergreens too though. Like boxwood.

Good stuff thanks (must've read that 10x trying to burn it into my brain so it sticks lol!)

 

[SU2]

I'm not aware that that species is native here in South Louisiana. I know they grow in Florida and Texas. Regardless, I've never worked with the species.

Regarding your other question about pines and junipers, well, junipers hate me so I don't really fool with them and frankly I'm not all that excited about them. The only one native here is Eastern red cedar, which for the most part make poor bonsai. As for pines, I've tried working with some natives for the past few years with limited success. Collecting them is more of a challenge, because of the need for more root and that mycorrhiza thing.

I assumed incorrectly on their distribution then

My experiences w/ pines and junipers is the same, they hate me lol, I've never had one survive although am still trying (for Junipers at least, haven't found what type of Pine, if any, are proper to get in FL...) It's very difficult here because as you say you want to bring "its" soil with it to a large degree, but our 'soil' here is beach sand so it's almost impossible to get something out of the ground w/ a 'root ball' (like out of a nursery container), you end up with dangling roots dropping the sand that was between/amongst them..


What of that Oak I pictured, I only defoliated the bottom ~7 leaves, stopping right before the shoot splits to three? I know you've no experience w/ this specie of Oak but would still love your(and @rockm & @GrimLore)'s opinion on it, right now I've got it out in the sun in the same orientation it was when still in-ground, in an uninsulated plastic training pot in pure DE (thoroughly rinsed while in a strainer, so no small DE or dust or anything!) Forgot, once again, to add Biotone to the mix to inoculate the inorganic media, I would've watered it in (stuff dissolves quickly in water) but wanted the IBA on the cut-root-tips to stay in-place for its first night, will be giving them a ~1-1-1 application of the biotone in their first watering)

This was taken just now (~24hr after collection), I'd left 1 leaf beneath the 1-->3 split in the shoot, all 3 of those growing-tips are in-tact (they weren't pinched/cut or anything so should still be producing some auxin depending just how dormant it is right now, I know they keep leaves when dormant but know 100% this is(was) in active growth, I saw this oak many times every week from when it was originally cut-back to when that first shoot started!) @Zach Smith would defoliate but isn't familiar w/ this specie/cultivar of oak - my intuition would be to defoliate more, leaving maybe ~2-4 leafs at the tips of the 3 shoots, would really really like to do what you guys think instead of following my gut (my gut has led to failure after failure w/ Oaks!)


[edit- the leaves removed by snipping the petioles halfway, there's definitely no damage to nodes/buds anywhere I removed a leaf!]

 

[GrimLore]

This was taken just now (~24hr after collection)

They have been collected and potted. In FL they are about as dormant as they will ever get IMHO... Myself, I would leave them be as is in partial sun, water as needed and wait. Defoliation would be of no consequence or help. If the one drops and buds so be it. The point is you just want them to live and doing anything other then normal care now would be time better spent on other plants. As with many trees the waiting game begins

Grimmy