My 6' Live Oak (nursery), chopped to 1' in Dec, has survived :D Some q's on progressing (&pics!)

[SU2]

In early or mid-Dec 2020 I was at H.Depot and saw a >6' Live Oak for $10 on sale so of course grabbed it despite knowing it was terrible timing, and - insult to injury - it'd need its trunk-chopping just to be taken from the H.Depot, so it got it in the parking lot & root-pruned once home.

It had 1 failed budding attempt, then basically dormant/no action through end of Dec., by early Jan it was trying again and that round had to *fight* but survived (yes it was getting brought indoors at night, artificial light / special treatment etc this wasn't left alone) and is now finally able to generate some energy of its own:


It's no coincidence it's only budding from that side so well, IE the side that gets light... but thankfully I've got some buds on the rear:
[very hard to see but 3 on the ridging around the oro cavity]
, and a suuuuper low one very hard to see it's dead-center of this photo:

The nebari is covered-up right now but is neat. Trunk obviously never grown large enough for the classic live oak fissured-bark but still happy to have one these have proven nearly impossible to collect, this one - a nursery specimen - still had a ball of taproot I had to remove, was 'bulbous' I suspect they had used some kinda tourniquet tech, dunno, anyways today I figured it was smart to do this:
,
flipping it 180deg, so the buds on the back that're just swelling can get sun & pop -- the ones on the rear seem "ready" to have to "fight" me turning this guy 180deg, whaddya think? Would you leave it as-is, in relation to the sun? Or can those shoots handle 'arcing back to the sun' just fine? I strongly suspect the latter, hoping for thoughts as well as wanting to show my "late xmas present" since I was sooo sure he'd die I have dozens of Live Oak seedlings, since I'd never pay retail for a nursery one like this^ one, don't know why they had it at $10 but hey finally have a Live Oak to mess with

 

[Underdog]

Gotta love the Gulf Coast!
Do that here and it never would wake up

 

[62veedub]

I always rotate my trees weekly so they would get more even sun. I’m not sure what your set up is like though.

 

[jeremy_norbury]

I'd have chopped this to 2-3" tall...

 

[SU2]

Gotta love the Gulf Coast!
Do that here and it never would wake up

While, as a collector/yamadori-hunter, I do pine (heh, pun intended) for the environments like the Rockies where I could find truly amazing stuff with reallllly extensive searching, I'm totally thankful for the 'extreme' nature of gardening here, from what I can "get away with" (I've got some large ficus.M's , bare-rooted, that I've had sitting in a 5gal nursery pot for like 2wks, realllly need to take care of them soon ) to the sheer growth rates IE how quick you can close a chop-wound on a BC here compared to, say, the Carolinas (there's also a "trick" here....during the summer, when the light is so intense that even the Bougainvilleas are sun-wilting a lil - regardless of soil-hydration - turns out that 2-3 midday sprinklers as "cool down" let them grow like wild, instead of "heat dormancy" through the middle afternoon when sun/lumens are the most available )

Yeah I was afraid this guy wouldn't make it despite our luck - those ^ are tropical species, and this was an Oak whose roots I majorly invaded at time of chopping - like mentioned it backbudded once and those failed/died, it sat 'dormant' a couple/few weeks, I went to check a hunch (that it was still very much alive) and nicked the very top of the trunk to reveal lush cambial tissue, that nicking must've instigated it because within days I got that 2nd round of buds forming within inches of where I nicked the trunk to check cambial-health (actually that nick is visible in photo #1, on the tip-top of the trunking, far-right-edge actually the furthest edge of trunk's top in that pic has the now-dead lil area I scratched off )

Can't reveal its fat base/nebari yet but the flare is just insane, will basically wait til it's in vigorous-growth then slip-pot it to a breather container (colander, growbag, pond-baskets etc) Also am guessing I'll reduce that trunkline's height to like 2/3rds where it is now, but wanna get it healthy before then ie great rootplate and all die-back from first round more-than over with!

 

[SU2]

I always rotate my trees weekly so they would get more even sun. I’m not sure what your set up is like though.

Most are too large & heavy for this to be practical, although monthly would be practical and I do fail to do that (my "rotate time" for trees is usually their re-pottings, though here that is a frequent enough thing....but it'll be far less so frequent as I continuously re-pot into mesh / breather containers that allow aerial-root-pruning of the rootplate, these seem to allow an easy 2-3X longer time in a given container for a fast-growing, in-development specimen.

(and my "setup is like": Was >150, think I've finally got it under 100 specimen now, in my backyard nursery & front yard raised-grow-bedding. My backyard's 3 perimeters(the non-house sides) are "fenced" with bonsai benches, all are at least 2 tiers well usually just 2 benches alongside one another so full "backyard wrap" of bonsai pretty happy with it took years to get it that way but the sheer #, and weight (since I go for large specimen), makes quick-rotates impractical...def gonna set a 2wk or monthly alarm based on your post though so thanks, will be doing it more-often from now on am upset I didn't see my failing there sooner by myself)

 

[SU2]

I'd have chopped this to 2-3" tall...

Living up to your /r/ handle ;D

To be clear though, I'd say doing that in Dec would've been un-duly risky, and that that ^ is the 1st of 2 trunk-chops, second one coming in like 1mo, thankfully I have budding at the bottom already that can 'take lead' at the upcoming 2nd chopping, it'll have developed much better roots by then and be able to take it and'll burst well (I expect... doing it 'fully' back in Dec seemed way too risky to me, since I knew I could do 2 chops I figured to play it conservative and not risk my chance at a quercus.V as I've wanted for so long, have so many seedlings of but no adults err juveniles in this case )

You bring up a topic that's been on my mind a lot though, w/ "BC season" nearly / already upon us here, which is "What % of final height, should you chop at?", obviously presuming no die-back (am talking in hypothetical so the #'s are easier so let's assume no die-back) Have studied some pics of finished bonsai I'm particularly impressed by, and it seems 1/2 to 2/3rds is a common "chop height" relative to the "final height of tree once in Refinement as bonsai" to be clear here's a quick sketching:

so like 50%-->75% in some cases but 2/3rds seems the most-common ratio I was finding....obviously(I hope ;D ) I was not using a ruler and charting-out numbers, merely studying visually, so would love thoughts on "chop height // final height" ratios (again, presuming no die-back, since that's situationally-dependent and would be accounted for after accounting for the sizes in ^ this context)

Good to hear from you I know I've been a ghost @ /r/ have been meaning to change it for weeks I think the season picking-up will be all the impetus needed for me How's the nursery doing??

 

[SU2]

@jeremy_norbury Do you have much familiarity with this type of quercus? I'd had a bit of a struggle deciding to take & chop this guy, because it meant it was a collection of a "larger/finished trunk" oak that was so juvenile it never got its characteristic deeply-fissured bark....but I couldn't transport him whole, so figured for $10 I'd take the 1' trunk as-is.
Do you think it's feasible to induce character into a trunk, over time, with wounding? IE I'll literally take a sharp knife and go around my BC's, nicking spots on the trunk especially the fluted nebari's connection to the trunking, to 'accentuate'/correct/help the flow or taper of any given spot.. Cannot stop thinking along the lines of "take your blade and make some vertical slices, randomly but homogeneously-enough, around the trunking" through the growing-season, effectively "creating" fissures (only it'd be via the wounding response, not by whatever mechanism it is that causes the bark to start accumulating into craggy plates as it does on q.virginiana's -- would love to know the botanical mechanism behind that if anyone knows, for instance sometimes I get the impression it's just as much an "age" thing as a size thing, would love knowing the functional causes behind smooth V craggy bark in Live Oaks!)

 

[SU2]

hmmmm....

For right now only, while it's awaiting it's 2nd trunk-chop and currently growing a vigorous bush up top, but just swelling some buds in the bottom, I cannot help but contemplate pinching-tips up top to induce more strength in the lower budding, I mean the "net hurt" to the growth/photosynthesis/recovery would be minor but it would "speed things up" in the bottom third of the trunk which is what'll be cut-back-to very shortly once it's at the "I'm positive it'll take it" stage ;D

 

[LittleDingus]

@jeremy_norbury
Do you think it's feasible to induce character into a trunk, over time, with wounding? IE I'll literally take a sharp knife and go around my BC's, nicking spots on the trunk especially the fluted nebari's connection to the trunking, to 'accentuate'/correct/help the flow or taper of any given spot.. Cannot stop thinking along the lines of "take your blade and make some vertical slices, randomly but homogeneously-enough, around the trunking" through the growing-season, effectively "creating" fissures (only it'd be via the wounding response, not by whatever mechanism it is that causes the bark to start accumulating into craggy plates as it does on q.virginiana's -- would love to know the botanical mechanism behind that if anyone knows, for instance sometimes I get the impression it's just as much an "age" thing as a size thing, would love knowing the functional causes behind smooth V craggy bark in Live Oaks!)

The character you're likely to get from something like an oak by cutting it as you suggest is a lot of callus sores. I can't see cutting in this manner forming the type of fissures one thinks of with craggy bark. If you damage the cambium layer, the tree will want to respond by sealing off the wound.

The reason the fissures form on most trees that form them is due to growth from underneath. If you have a cylinder of material and then expand the diameter of that cylinder, the material can either stretch...or break. Corky trees grow new bark from just outside the cambium layer but underneath the old bark. If it's a tree that forms a thicker bark, the new layer pushes out the old layers enough that they stretch to the point of breaking. It's similar for the paper bark species...just the bark isn't as thick to begin with. Hope I explained that well enough to make sense??

 

[SU2]

The character you're likely to get from something like an oak by cutting it as you suggest is a lot of callus sores. I can't see cutting in this manner forming the type of fissures one thinks of with craggy bark. If you damage the cambium layer, the tree will want to respond by sealing off the wound.

The reason the fissures form on most trees that form them is due to growth from underneath. If you have a cylinder of material and then expand the diameter of that cylinder, the material can either stretch...or break. Corky trees grow new bark from just outside the cambium layer but underneath the old bark. If it's a tree that forms a thicker bark, the new layer pushes out the old layers enough that they stretch to the point of breaking. It's similar for the paper bark species...just the bark isn't as thick to begin with. Hope I explained that well enough to make sense??

Can't help wonder how scores and scores of such callouses would look though....I certainly am gonna start some experiments of this sort on "throwaway stock" I have!

And yeah that made great sense, but would LOVE any elaboration possible, if you're able, it just intrigues me I mean I know there's multiple factors, such as the specie or the maturity of the specimen, but am curious about 'generalities', for instance I have seen some incredible character forming on the bark of massive yamadori's that I'd collected, trunk-chopped suuuuuper low (and no cut-paste!), the 1yr or 2-year "shrink-back" of the cambial tissue in-between the sapwood/heartwood, and the trunk, shrinks...this basically causes distortion in the trunk's outer bark (provided the area survives & isn't part of die-back, of course!)

But yeah from the insane barks on bc's & live oak, to thin bark like BRT's or C.Myrtles, would love any 'geeky explanations or elaborations' you're willing/able to provide am very intrigued by the subject ;D

 

[LittleDingus]

Can't help wonder how scores and scores of such callouses would look though....I certainly am gonna start some experiments of this sort on "throwaway stock" I have!

You'll want to be a little carefull with how you slice/damage the bark if you're going to try "scores and scores"! enough damage and the tree won't have a functional vascular system and may die entirely above the damage.

Also, each insult is another chance for fungus and other pathogens to gain entry. There are pathogens that kill oak dead

Even without pathogens, enough insults and the tree may develope a "cancer". Look up "burl". You may or may not end up with some burl growth.

My guess is you'll either end up with a lot of ugly (my opinion) warts and bumps or sections of bark will die entirely and you'll get shari and lots of exposed wood. A lot depends on how many cuts and how you go about making them. I've never purposely done anything like this to a tree at the scale you're suggesting so I'm just guessing what might happen.

There is/used to be a practice of hammering the trunk to thicken it. Maybe someone better versed in bonsai techniques than me knows where there are some tutorials/blogs that show results from that practice? Might be similar to what you're attempting...

I'm not one to tell people what to do with their trees given how many "non-standard" practices I perform but I would caution to start this kind of "exploration" from moderation. Think of what you might be doing to the overall health of the tree first. There's not much to be gained by finding yet another way to kill a tree

 

[legobonsaipianoman]

That’s awesome. I can’t wait for spring to come to Alabama. Lol

 

[LittleDingus]

And yeah that made great sense, but would LOVE any elaboration possible, if you're able, it just intrigues me I mean I know there's multiple factors, such as the specie or the maturity of the specimen, but am curious about 'generalities', for instance I have seen some incredible character forming on the bark of massive yamadori's that I'd collected, trunk-chopped suuuuuper low (and no cut-paste!), the 1yr or 2-year "shrink-back" of the cambial tissue in-between the sapwood/heartwood, and the trunk, shrinks...this basically causes distortion in the trunk's outer bark (provided the area survives & isn't part of die-back, of course!)

But yeah from the insane barks on bc's & live oak, to thin bark like BRT's or C.Myrtles, would love any 'geeky explanations or elaborations' you're willing/able to provide am very intrigued by the subject ;D

Given that the cambium layer is under the bark, and that bark is not "live", something must give for the tree to thicken. Corking species tend to push bark out forcing it to fissure and peel as the cylinder expands. Thinner barked species tend to "exfoliate". BRTs and eucalyptus tend to exfoliate which exposes "fresh" tissue that may be a different color. The newly exposed bark layer often starts to oxidize into new colors over time. This gives the bark a patchwork appearence. Different degrees of oxidation over time is what makes rainbow eucalyptus so colorful!

As a woodworker, one quality of wood I really enjoy is "quilting" or "flaming". Sometimes this quality can be seen in the bark...especially in less corking species. It tends to form where the wood is under stress near crotches or when the tree waves in the wind constantly, etc...where it shows up in bark is sometimes the bark gets "wavy" or "ripply" looking. This tends to be a bigger scale effect that's maybe not possible at the scale of typical bonsai

Another effect I like that's probably not attainable at the scale of bonsai is the arm pits that dawn redwoods grow that is a way they are distinguished from bald cypress. Dawn redwoods will form cords of vascular tissue visible at the bark layer that connects a branch to the roots. Those cords will wrap around branches creating a hallow under older branches that look like arm pits. Google it...lots of cool pictures out there! But probably not attainable in bonsai

So yeah, I get a little geeky over how things grow sometimes too