Maple Seedlings as cutting. Shohin technique, Kyosuke Gun book

[grizzlywon]

I have become a huge fan of the Kyosuke Gun books on Shohin bonsai.

In both the Japanese maple and trident maple books, he demonstrates a technique for getting branching very low to the ground (I believe that is the reason, I can't read the book).

Here is the technique from what I can tell from the photos. (Pages 15 and 29 in the trident book: and page 36 and 40 in the JMaple book)

1. Grow out some seedlings.
2. When the first set of real leaves set you pull it up and cut the trunk it off about 1-1.5cm from the cotyledons.
3. Dip in rooting hormone and put in soil, looks like (pure akadama)?

I am looking to see if anyone has tried this or can read the books to see what I/we might be missing.
I don't see any other directions. It seem obvious to me having done lots of seedlings, shouldn't they go in the shade like normal cuttings? Shouldn't they be covered with plastic etc, yet I don't see him recommending that in the book at least not in a picture.


I did an experiment with about trident 3 seedlings in four different settings as I know now is the time to take them. They are all in pure akadama, used the same hormone and the same size container.

I. Cuttings in part sun/shade not covered.
II. Cuttings in part sun/shade covered with a clear plastic dome.
III. Cuttings in full shade not covered.
IV. Cuttings in full shade covered with a clear plastic dome.

My guess is that the covered/full shade cuttings will have the best chance, but have any of you tired this?

I'll post some pics if any survive.

Any other info/translations would be great.

Thanks in advance!



If you want here is his site, it has a nice gallery and it's in ENGLISH of all things! http://mini-bonsai.com/indexe.html

 

[sulrich]

Hi,

I've got the French translation of the Japanese Maple book published by Maillot Bonsai. The text indicates that the main point of cutting the seedlings is to obtain a good nebari, by stimulating growth of multiple roots that depart from one point. On p. 36 it says the soil is Vermiculite, but I think Akadama will work just as well. The text doesn't mention any cover; I can only guess that this might work in the rather humid climate in Japan, but in my climate (Central Europe) cuttings definitely need some covering, mini greenhouse etc. to not dry out.

Best regards,
Stefan

 

[bonsai barry]

Sounds like an interesting experiment. I'll be watching this thread with interest.

 

[grizzlywon]

Stefan, thanks so much! Maybe we should pitch in our money and pay you to translate the whole book. I know they are supposed to translate it into English too, but I'm not holding my breath. I emailed them a long time ago and it didn't sound too promising.

 

[bretts]

You can read about this technique but for pines in Bonsai todat No#12
I think you can summarise that it is done for two reasons.
Obviously to get a great set of roots right from the start. The bonus to this is that it enables you to get a very big jump start in growth. The roots need very little work after this and often just potted up instead. Great roots with little disturbance means fast growth.

 

[63pmp]

I've had good success using powdered rooting hormone and perlite. Plants were incubated in a clear plastic tank out off direct sun. Got >90% success on both trident maple and Japanese maple.

I personally feel it's the way to get low first branches for mame or shohin. Allowing the seed to grow naturally can put the first node 5-8cm above the soil line, this method brings it right down to the ground. Last spring was the first time I had done this, so I'm looking forward to seeing what the roots look like when I repot them.

Paul

 

[grizzlywon]

Tks Paul, and Bretts. I have noticed that the covered ones are doing well. The one in the shade looks the best. I'm thinking about taking a whole bunch more like this soon.

 

[Bill S]

I remember the BT article, and pines is what I thought is was written about, your book is showing you otherwise for sure?? I have seen an article somewhere dealing with Maples( I'll see if I can find it), but I don't remember it cutting off the entire root mass as with the other article dealing with pines.

Definately like to see your results.

 

[cquinn]

Why not just air layer a larger plant closer to a first branch. you'll have a fatter trunk, low branches, and roots all the way around. Boon said in a seminar I was at once that airlayering was the best way to propagate maples.

 

[Smoke]

There are many reasons why doing this on maple is a waste of time. (making cuttings of seedlings) Unlike pines which for the most part are not as forgiving in the layering department, and need good radial roots from the beginning, maples can be layered anytime.

It is far more prudent to grow out maple material, sort for shape and grow out trunks. Good trunks can be layered later and branches grown out in a few seasons. There are many threads on maples in the maple section that will bear this out, in fact including my story of a maple cronicle.

also.....grafting maples is so easy that a caveman can do it. So growing that needed branch down low and just tying a trident branch to another trident branch without even cutting it will graft by the end of a season. Thread grafts make this easy as well as approach grafts wich are very easy and ultra safe.

Al

 

[63pmp]

It's just another technique in a stable of many. Not right, not wrong; just another way of doing things to provide a different look.

Paul

 

[bonsai barry]

I did a few seedling cuttings as an experiment but as I did so two questions came to mind:
1) How is this any more advantagous to a regular cutting?
2) If I leave the remaining part of the tree trunk planted will it continue to grow?

 

[63pmp]

The main advantage to this technique, that I can see, is that it produces very short inter-node length, and that the first node is very close to the roots. You would only do it if you are making very small bonsai. It is also very practical if you are doing lots of small trees, say hundreds, where as layering is not so practical for propagating large number of trees.

The bottom section of the seedling dies when you take the cutting, as there is no node for a shoot to develop from.

Paul

 

[grizzlywon]

This book is specifically for making Shohin sized trees. Seems like a good way to get good roots from the start as someone on here said and for getting the first branches very low also stated. They are still holding strong. At least the ones that were covered or in the shade. The uncovered in the sun didn't make it. RIP little guys.

 

[grizzlywon]

Here is an update on the seedling cuttings.

The group that was not covered in the sun and in the shade died. Big surprise.

The covered group both in the sun and in the shade are still growing and have rooted. I tried to pull on them and they are in there good.

The first pic is the group in the sun. They have a yellow tint to their leaves and look like they have grown more.

The second is the group in the shade group.