Kyushu Juniper - what would you do now?

[Grahamw]

Hi all,
I've recently acquired this Kyushu (Kishu? is it the same?) Juniper from a reputable Bonsai nursery in the UK... I bought it because it has great potential but clearly needs quite a bit of work, and I like a project!
The substrate seems to be a mix of akadama / pumice / and some kind of organic compost. Eek.. Roots are emerging from the crate in places.. and are ok from what i can see.
Overall looks pretty healthy anyway...
So what would you do first? I'd like to repot into something a bit more free draining - that soil worries me over winter in the wet UK. But probably not right time of year (?). But it also really needs a maintenance prune and clearing out, and getting some air and light into the interior. Or do nothing and wait 'til spring... I don't want to do too much at once.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated!

 

[Deleted member 47471]

I would remove any and all very small weak/dead growth from the tree to open to breathe and see into the tree to identify and determine structure.

Determine what the tree front is based on a wide roots and trunk, interesting initial movement and direction from bottom going up and then the trunk line movement as the tree ascends.

Asses the presence of mature primaries, secondaries, tertiary branching and the foliage they carry: do they already create a good skeleton for the structure of the tree (coming off the trunk and off the primaries and secondaries), are they existing a distance away from each other and from front to side to back of tree, how far along is each individual branch in the development or refinement stage.

Visualize the future form and style with what the tree shows you currently and make any prunes/cuts and apply wire where needed to accomplish moving the tree further in that direction and towards next phase of development.

Looks like a lot of work was already done in this tree already. So, your goal is to continue working the tree from that point of previous work and further improve the tree towards a refined tree.

This is a 25+ minute video and helpful to what you are asking for:

This video is also helpful to what you are asking for:

Ask 100 different people what to do and you will receive 100 different pieces of advice. Do with the information on the videos what you would like to do. Happy growing!

 

[bwaynef]

I'm not familiar with UK weather, but I'd imagine the wet weather you're anticipating will be somewhat mitigated by the pretty open container this tree is in. If it was mine, I'd clean it thoroughly.

Remove foliage that is

• Weak
• Hanging down
• Growing within 1/2 - 3/4" of a crotch (that you know you're not going to cut back to to compact the tree.)

This ought to allow you to see into the trunk and begin visualizing a front as well as a future style for the tree. At this point, wire the branches into position. That will likely mean bringing branches down and creating tiers of foliage. Make sure the branch doesn't arch down, but is fairly consistent from the beginning. As you're wiring, work from the bottom. This will allow you to lower the branches into position. Make sure you have branching all the way around. Said another way, try not to shade lower branches unnecessarily.

The most conservative plan would be to hold off on trimming any tips on the tree. It might look a bit gangly, but will help it recover from a repot in spring. Here, I wouldn't hesitate to clip the runners back to profile at this time of year. If your season doesn't allow the tree to recover and continue to put on growth, leaving the branch tips now will drive growth after repotting ...which will drive root growth. Come late spring or early summer you could cut it back if you haven't already.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Only thing we would do to this tree at the moment would be clean off the bottom of the branches and remove any dead growth.

I’d the media looks really mucky, could drill it with a long 2-3mm drill multiple times.

Another would be to put a chunk of wood or wedge, say 4cm thick under the middle of one side to lower the water table. We do this to most trees in pots during spring. Your winter/spring weather is very similar to ours.

Then would use the time until spring to study the tree.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Grahamw]

Thanks for your replies!

 

[Grahamw]

So thanks again for all the advice! I think I will clean off the dead growth / underside of branches for now. I might try to get a one to one session with a bonsai pro in my area to help me learn in spring..

 

[eugenev2]

Hi all,
I've recently acquired this Kyushu (Kishu? is it the same?) Juniper from a reputable Bonsai nursery in the UK... I bought it because it has great potential but clearly needs quite a bit of work, and I like a project!
The substrate seems to be a mix of akadama / pumice / and some kind of organic compost. Eek.. Roots are emerging from the crate in places.. and are ok from what i can see.
Overall looks pretty healthy anyway...
So what would you do first? I'd like to repot into something a bit more free draining - that soil worries me over winter in the wet UK. But probably not right time of year (?). But it also really needs a maintenance prune and clearing out, and getting some air and light into the interior. Or do nothing and wait 'til spring... I don't want to do too much at once.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated!

Only one nursery i know that uses crates and that kind of soil mix in the uk...
So if it is a Mr Chan tree, he does make videos detailing exactly what i puts in those mixes, generally he uses crates to help trees regain vigor...but also i might be wrong whose nursery you are referring to.
Personally i would focus on getting a plan in place for over wintering the tree properly, as i understand your winters is usually very wet and these kind of nurseries tend to have green houses to protect from overwatering

 

[Grahamw]

Only one nursery i know that uses crates and that kind of soil mix in the uk...
So if it is a Mr Chan tree, he does make videos detailing exactly what i puts in those mixes, generally he uses crates to help trees regain vigor...but also i might be wrong whose nursery you are referring to.
Personally i would focus on getting a plan in place for over wintering the tree properly, as i understand your winters is usually very wet and these kind of nurseries tend to have green houses to protect from overwatering

Hi, thanks, yes you’ve hit the nail on the head it’s from Mr Chan.
I know there is much debate about substrate / soil and who am I to pretend to know anything really… but I think you’re right; it does need some winter protection. It certainly seems to retain moisture far more than other trees I have.

 

[Shibui]

I might try to get a one to one session with a bonsai pro in my area to help me learn in spring..

Just be aware that spring is not a great time to wire and bend junipers. When they are actively growing the bark slips easily and whole sections can die after making tight bends. Autumn and winter is a much better time to be doing that work and you could then repot safely in spring when it has recovered from the pruning and bending.
Deciduous trees can cope with pruning and repotting at the same time but there's a growing band of bonsai people who won't do too many things to junipers at one time. Much safer to spread each different job a season or more apart.

 

[Grahamw]

Just be aware that spring is not a great time to wire and bend junipers. When they are actively growing the bark slips easily and whole sections can die after making tight bends. Autumn and winter is a much better time to be doing that work and you could then repot safely in spring when it has recovered from the pruning and bending.
Deciduous trees can cope with pruning and repotting at the same time but there's a growing band of bonsai people who won't do too many things to junipers at one time. Much safer to spread each different job a season or more apart.

Thanks for this.. ok so do the pruning / cleaning up and wiring over Autumn / winter and then wait ‘til spring to repot. Gotcha, thanks!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Yeah, sorry for being unclear. Thought about wiring the tree in fall, but thought it would be more difficult to do in this container and would want it to winter over before mucky around with it.

So my thought was to pot next spring 2025. Likely into a good, shallower box that was easier to work the tree so it could grow strong . Even an Anderson flat would be better.

Then through the year do basic shaping with scissors and minimal wiring in the fall 2025 after it recovered from the repot.

Then fall 2026, do the hard bends.

…but we like to really give trees time to study and get really strong before working them hard. What’s a year or so if the tree ends up being so much better for the wait?

Another way of looking at it. Just our way of doing business… but we tend to take a lot more time than many other folks in bonsai…. but haven’t damaged a tree in years.

Good Luck!
DSD sends

 

[Grahamw]

Yeah, sorry for being unclear. Thought about wiring the tree in fall, but thought it would be more difficult to do in this container and would want it to winter over before mucky around with it.

So my thought was to pot next spring 2025. Likely into a good, shallower box that was easier to work the tree so it could grow strong . Even an Anderson flat would be better.

Then through the year do basic shaping with scissors and minimal wiring in the fall 2025 after it recovered from the repot.

Then fall 2026, do the hard bends.

…but we like to really give trees time to study and get really strong before working them hard. What’s a year or so if the tree ends up being so much better for the wait?

Another way of looking at it. Just our way of doing business… but we tend to take a lot more time than many other folks in bonsai…. but haven’t damaged a tree in years.

Good Luck!
DSD sends

Thanks for taking the time to reply @Deep Sea Diver I appreciate it.. I’m all for taking my time!
It sounds like you work professionally, is that right?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thanks for taking the time to reply @Deep Sea Diver I appreciate it.. I’m all for taking my time!
It sounds like you work professionally, is that right?

No, both better half and I just work with a whole lot of different species of trees, started with azaleas and some beat up heritage trees….and things progressed quickly including through propagating various and sundry. latest was Fodu Juniper. Also both work as weekly volunteers at Pac Bonsai Museum. So we work with a lot of developing trees in various stages at home and over 150 outstanding museum grade trees.

As this is a long standing bonsai learning forum, many others have a much greater depth of experience in bonsai or certain species on the forum. There are a real lot of outstanding folks on this forum giving advice, @Shibui @Eric Schrader,@River's Edge, @Canada Bonsai (amongst others) run shops along with a number of others too numerous to name. Along with this there are many many folks who are professionals or Uber experienced hobbyists and/or specialists on certain species on the forum including @MACH5, @Bonsai Nut, @rockm, @Paradox, @Brian Van Fleet, @JudyB, @Japonicus, @Cadillactaste, @Hartinez, @Carol 83 , @Glaucus and many more way too numerous to name.

So what you were seeing in the some of the posts above is while our goals are all the same, to help others learn to produce the highest quality bonsai possible, we all have different approaches and experience to accomplish this. Folks will chime in to correct or propose different time sequences, refine, correct or add a technique, discuss a point or just plain chat etc..

After being here a few years, I learn alot by just looking at progressions and reading through other’s thoughts on a topic. Wisdom comes in many forms here.

Anyways, you’ve got a great tree to develop! So please post images and thoughts as things develop over time. We will all enjoy watching both the tree and you progress…

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[leatherback]

a reputable Bonsai nursery in the UK

organic compost. Eek..

What is your concern? The tree is healthy. It is growing in this substrate. And you trust the nursery. So stop worrying about the fear mongoring going on on the internet about organics. There is no problem with organics, as long as you ensure drainage.

What advice did the nursery give you? They are local to you and know the tree.

fyi.. My junipers ALL are out in ALL weather. All the time. They do not care.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

What is your concern? The tree is healthy. It is growing in this substrate. And you trust the nursery. So stop worrying about the fear mongoring going on on the internet about organics. There is no problem with organics, as long as you ensure drainage.

Absolutely spot on.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

…darn it! .., forgot @leatherback who is definitely one of the more experienced practitioners on this forum. So very sorry Jelle!

btw: His outstanding series of videos are a must see. http://www.youtube.com/growingbonsai

Concur about media. Peter Chan has been growing out pre bonsai for many, many years. And junipers are very tough. Only time we protect these during winter are when we’ve made extreme bends. Ordinarily we put it these trees on ground the drains well, out of the wind and if worried, bark or mulch up around the pots

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[leatherback]

…darn it! .., forgot @leatherback who is definitely one of the more experienced practitioners on this forum. So very sorry Jelle!

Don't worry about it. I am typically seen as a trouble-causing obnoxious rascal so I get it when I am not called to the fray .


By the way.. My #1 concern with new trees is to get them in my substrate, as I know how it responds. But that does not include an immediate repot if a tree is fully happy and from a reputable seller. I wait till the species-appropriate time.

 

[Shibui]

My #1 concern with new trees is to get them in my substrate, as I know how it responds. But that does not include an immediate repot if a tree is fully happy and from a reputable seller. I wait till the species-appropriate time.

Also for me.
It's not the potting soil. It is how we manage it that counts, so getting your trees into a soil mix that you know works in your back yard with your watering and care is what matters. Organic/inorganic is only minor.
Nurture your trees through the first season in the soi that the grower uses but change at the first suitable opportunity.

 

[Grahamw]

What is your concern? The tree is healthy. It is growing in this substrate. And you trust the nursery. So stop worrying about the fear mongoring going on on the internet about organics. There is no problem with organics, as long as you ensure drainage.

What advice did the nursery give you? They are local to you and know the tree.

fyi.. My junipers ALL are out in ALL weather. All the time. They do not care.

Hello, thanks for your reply.. I must admit the ‘eek!’ above was slightly tongue in cheek… having read and seen lots of advice that says don’t use soil / potting compost etc.
I suppose as a relative novice I’m just trying to understand as much as I can and then make my own choices. I suppose I was slightly concerned as I had read that Junipers don’t like to have things too wet.
Coincidentally I watched your video on overwintering just before you replied here, thanks for the great advice; video was great

 

[Grahamw]

Also for me.
It's not the potting soil. It is how we manage it that counts, so getting your trees into a soil mix that you know works in your back yard with your watering and care is what matters. Organic/inorganic is only minor.
Nurture your trees through the first season in the soi that the grower uses but change at the first suitable opportunity.

Thanks for the reply @Shibui appreciated