Kiwi's Blue Spruce

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi all,
While I am lucky to work for a nursery I am still very unsure of how to deal with these Picea's. They have been in the ground about 5 years so i am guessing they be about 7 years old and very low grafted onto Picea abies I think. My plan is to build 4 boxes for these and go from there. As Spring starting here they have maybe been dug up a little late but should be OK.
Here are my questions -
1. How much of the old soil can I remove prior to putting into box? (Half maybe)
2. To do any wiring and foliage work do I wait a year or go headlong into it now. ?( I am hoping to thin out the foliage somewhat)
3. Are the branches too fat to bend with wire and am I better with guy wires etc?

Looking forward to some advice as how to go forward. These have only been dug last week also and are in nursery mix of 100% pine bark ( but very fine mostly all less than 4mm).

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More trunks

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Sep 12, 2017

View media item 3735

 

[sorce]

So these were recently dug and also slated for repotting soon again?

I just watched a Nigel Saunders Video were he is like...
Bare root em and wash the old soil out straight away...
That way you have no work into them if they die.

I'm with that.

Replacing old soil is one of those things that you can feel the tree loving.
Or it dies.

I like that because Only the Strong survive round here!

Sorce

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

So these were recently dug and also slated for repotting soon again?

I just watched a Nigel Saunders Video were he is like...
Bare root em and wash the old soil out straight away...
That way you have no work into them if they die.

I'm with that.

Replacing old soil is one of those things that you can feel the tree loving.
Or it dies.

I like that because Only the Strong survive round here!

Sorce

Hi Sorce
Thanks for that and I will check out Nigel Saunders also.
These PB18 bags hold 18 litres of mix but my problem is probably half of the bag is regular dirt ( silty sandy loam) and I think a repot is necessary ??
Charles

 

[sorce]

If they are fresh dug I might leave em.

Might?

7 p's or 8 or 6.

Proper previous planning prevents piss poor performance.

I'm working out a schedule depending on whether nursery material is acquired in spring or fall.
With the forever..."it depends" attached of course.

For spruce, which I have now finally successfully repotted for then first time myself this summer.....

I'm always going to first prune the top of any thrintersections.

Sorce Bonsai Dictionary....

Thrintersection: an area where Three or more branches grow from one spot.

For me with spruce...
I find it easier to prune to proper nexts and then visualize health enough to repot.
Than it is to repot and understand when it would be healthy enough to prune.

Pretty sure that's across the board as we can't see the roots of all trees. (colanders rule!)

But with severe thrintersectioners, box, spruce, pine, maple, etc....

It makes more sense to fix these flaws which are only going to get exponentially worse first.

A season or two of healthy CONTROLLED and pruned to proper nexts growth should then allow for health enough to repot.

Of course this is with younger vigorous nursery stock.

I have recently reckognized how old needles thicken branches on spruce, very localized.
If you remove needles at the base of a branch, and leave them out at the tip, that branch is going to stay thinner at the base and look ugly as hell.

I'm observing for timing this....

For now..

I'm removing old needles around thrintesections and near back buds to keep swelling down.

And am working on a plucking scheme to put extreme taper in individual branchlets.

They say you have to put extra attention into building shohin trees.
They didn't expect this level of attention.

Sorce

 

[Nybonsai12]

Yamadori?

 

[Paradox]

Yamadori?

Normal incorrect use of the word.

More like yardadori

If these will backbud willingly, they might make decent trees someday. As of right now, they are not all that interestimg honestly. Long trunks with no taper or foliage.

If these were recently repotted, I'd be inclined to leave them in those pots until next spring. Messing with their roots twice in a short span could kill them.

 

[M. Frary]

If these were recently repotted, I'd be inclined to leave them in those pots until next spring. Messing with their roots twice in a short span could kill them.

And don't hose off the old soil. I personally would leave them in the buckets for 2 years after being dug out of the field. Then see what I have in the way roots.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Normal incorrect use of the word.

More like yardadori

If these will backbud willingly, they might make decent trees someday. As of right now, they are not all that interestimg honestly. Long trunks with no taper or foliage.

If these were recently repotted, I'd be inclined to leave them in those pots until next spring. Messing with their roots twice in a short span could kill them.

Hi Paradox,
Thanks for your comments. Yep mine stating the 'Yamadori' is a classic newbie mistake as I thought if I dug the tree out of the ground I could class the tree as that. Obviously not !

This is my second thread here at this site and I don't expect "all love and rosy stuff" but hey thanks for the positive comments with lots to work on from what you have described (sarcasm sorry).
Honesty is great and I can read that these trees MAY not become outstanding bonsai. If I don't show any of my trees in the future and only grow all of them for my selfish pleasure of growing Bonsai, am I going to be judged different? Or do I think I am worse off. More than likely not.
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Yamadori?

Nice addition to the thread for a newbie.
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

And don't hose off the old soil. I personally would leave them in the buckets for 2 years after being dug out of the field. Then see what I have in the way roots.

Hi M Frary,
Thank you for your opinion. I was worried about stripping all the soil so I will split the decision by doing 2 trees your way and 2 trees Sorce way. And hope to keep the thread going to show if both or either way works out better.
It is just I have seen/read on my threads about getting rid of all old soil. I understand the new feeder roots is essential etc, but no oxygen in top soil etc. Have you any more thoughts to add regarding this?
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

If they are fresh dug I might leave em.

Might?

7 p's or 8 or 6.

Proper previous planning prevents piss poor performance.

I'm working out a schedule depending on whether nursery material is acquired in spring or fall.
With the forever..."it depends" attached of course.

For spruce, which I have now finally successfully repotted for then first time myself this summer.....

I'm always going to first prune the top of any thrintersections.

Sorce Bonsai Dictionary....

Thrintersection: an area where Three or more branches grow from one spot.

For me with spruce...
I find it easier to prune to proper nexts and then visualize health enough to repot.
Than it is to repot and understand when it would be healthy enough to prune.

Pretty sure that's across the board as we can't see the roots of all trees. (colanders rule!)

But with severe thrintersectioners, box, spruce, pine, maple, etc....

It makes more sense to fix these flaws which are only going to get exponentially worse first.

A season or two of healthy CONTROLLED and pruned to proper nexts growth should then allow for health enough to repot.

Of course this is with younger vigorous nursery stock.

I have recently reckognized how old needles thicken branches on spruce, very localized.
If you remove needles at the base of a branch, and leave them out at the tip, that branch is going to stay thinner at the base and look ugly as hell.

I'm observing for timing this....

For now..

I'm removing old needles around thrintesections and near back buds to keep swelling down.

And am working on a plucking scheme to put extreme taper in individual branchlets.

They say you have to put extra attention into building shohin trees.
They didn't expect this level of attention.

Sorce

Hi Sorce,
Might leave them alone - re no feeder roots, damaged roots of a tree being transplanted etc?
Anyway thank you for your thought re pruning.
Also about wiring or guy wires down the track. Any thoughts/advice to help style these to be more big Bonsai - ish rather than tree in bucket etc??
Charles

 

[M. Frary]

It is just I have seen/read on my threads about getting rid of all old soil. I understand the new feeder roots is essential etc, but no oxygen in top soil etc.

They're growing in regular old soil now right?
I go slow with conifer roots. I've killed too many being aggressive in the past.
The nursery I worked at in the past was also a tree farm. 80 acres of pine and spruce. I did all of the digging. From little guys like yours up to 10 footers. In that time I learned that you must not remove all of the soil. Here it's just sand so if it had been dry the sand just dribbles off of the roots as you lift them. We watered everything the day before breaking out the shovels or the spade. We left them in the sand. That big ones went into burlap and the smaller ones into buckets. Trees that didn't sell lived in the sand for years sometimes with no ill effect.
I think there is too big of a rush to change out soil. It takes time. For conifers that is. I don't hesitate to wash soil off of deciduous trees. I've done it to conifers too. All died. Well almost. One lived. But that wasn't my doing. It got blown off of the bench and torrential rain washed it all night.
If you want to experiment fine. But don't hold your breath. And do it to a tree that doesnt matter.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

They're growing in regular old soil now right?
I go slow with conifer roots. I've killed too many being aggressive in the past.
The nursery I worked at in the past was also a tree farm. 80 acres of pine and spruce. I did all of the digging. From little guys like yours up to 10 footers. In that time I learned that you must not remove all of the soil. Here it's just sand so if it had been dry the sand just dribbles off of the roots as you lift them. We watered everything the day before breaking out the shovels or the spade. We left them in the sand. That big ones went into burlap and the smaller ones into buckets. Trees that didn't sell lived in the sand for years sometimes with no ill effect.
I think there is too big of a rush to change out soil. It takes time. For conifers that is. I don't hesitate to wash soil off of deciduous trees. I've done it to conifers too. All died. Well almost. One lived. But that wasn't my doing. It got blown off of the bench and torrential rain washed it all night.
If you want to experiment fine. But don't hold your breath. And do it to a tree that doesnt matter.

Hi M Frary,
Thank you for your comments re the soil. Yes I think I am a little paranoid lol about the soil.
In the photos the bags are half soil and half nursery mix ( pine bark). The soil in the field is a sandy silty loam but is quite sticky so there maybe is some clay in it also.
Maybe I go hard out on 1 tree and be gentle with the other 3. You have given me good reason to go more carefully etc.
So I am thinking of making some 6 inch deep boxes for these as I don't have any pots big enough and don't like the nursery mix much. What do you think of the 2 foot square boxes that would be 6 inches deep? Any don't attack the roots much at all.
Charles

 

[sorce]

First....
I like that you're gonna give a few methods a try. Best way to find what works for you!
I might even suggest doing one of each methods in spring and Summer too.

Far as styling....the vigor and growth rate of my Black hills Spruce is astonishing.
I guess beginning with "dwarf" Which I now consider "shitty for bonsai " junipers and spruces, real growth had me underestimating their potential.

Had I known how fast they bulk up earlier, I would have made a few different moves, so don't underestimate their growth potential!

This is key in these early developement stages where cutting off the wrong branch or leader can add years to a project, or ruin it's MAXIMUM POTENTIAL all together.

I've strapped sacrifice branches down with guy wires just to hold them out of the way and they set pretty well.

Better to traditionally wire a branch and use guy wires on the wire to further hold it than guy wires alone for styling.
To avoid "rainbow" branches.

Wire scars are ugly initially but seem to heal well.
But there is a point to of no return.

The more you break the branches the better they set.
I regularly turn foliage pads upside down for this purpose.
Not to mention regular growth habits of trees usually make turning a pad upside down go from shitty for bonsai, to perfect for bonsai, as all that weak bottom growth everyone else would have you cut off...
Is perfect for top and back fill when upside down.

From
_________
____
__

To

___
_____
________

What Bonsai4me.com says about vigor is pretty accurate.
Except I'd add 4 tip buds means ultra vigorous.
3 vigorous.
2 healthy.
1 leave alone.

After a while it becomes pretty clear how to utilize this knowledge to direct energy, build certain parts of the tree, while keeping some in check, etc.

On my BHS...
It is clear, there are 2 regular needle sizes.
About one inch, and about half inch.

One inch coming from tip buds with 2-4,
Half inch coming from 1-2.

It is that natural half inch foliage I will seek to use in the end, not some pruned to imaginary size I am trying to create by making the tree unhealthy!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Don't want you to miss that last post. due to quote jumping.

paranoid

Don't be paranoid!

I swear to God 80% of this root mass was rotted away.
The BHS I been speaking of.

The faster you have a collection of genetically Ballsy trees, the faster you get a good bonsai collection.

I'd be more paranoid about having a weak ass tree in ,you bunch!

Kill em young!
If they don't die....
They are worthy!

Sorce

 

[M. Frary]

Hi M Frary,
Thank you for your comments re the soil. Yes I think I am a little paranoid lol about the soil.
In the photos the bags are half soil and half nursery mix ( pine bark). The soil in the field is a sandy silty loam but is quite sticky so there maybe is some clay in it also.
Maybe I go hard out on 1 tree and be gentle with the other 3. You have given me good reason to go more carefully etc.
So I am thinking of making some 6 inch deep boxes for these as I don't have any pots big enough and don't like the nursery mix much. What do you think of the 2 foot square boxes that would be 6 inches deep? Any don't attack the roots much at all.
Charles

The boxes sound fine. I put all of mine in colanders as soon as I can. Decidious and coniferous. Pines and spruced will still have field or nursery soil still on them. They get minor rootwork then go into the colander. With tbe nursery soil still on to be changed out gradually over time.

 

[Nybonsai12]

Nice addition to the thread for a newbie.
Charles

Learned something didn't ya.

 

[my nellie]

Learned something didn't ya.

Of course, Charles did!

... ...Yep mine stating the 'Yamadori' is a classic newbie mistake

Seriously now, if you allow me Charles...
I would like to say that as a newcomer you are not yet used to some "personal features" which all of us BNut members own as part of our character.
So, sometimes you might be frustrated regarding the comments BUT everyone here is willing and ready to help in every way, even in their own personal/unique way of expression

 

[Joelshack2362]

Hello everyone. I just got a blue spruce and I’m new to Bonsai and was wondering if anyone could tell me if you can remove the needles along the limb in order to wire the limb into place?

 

[sorce]

Hello everyone. I just got a blue spruce and I’m new to Bonsai and was wondering if anyone could tell me if you can remove the needles along the limb in order to wire the limb into place?

I argue leave them everywhere possible.

Balance your ease or work with health of tree.
And aesthetics.

Sorce