Kill it or make a bonsai

trigo

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I've seen ryan neil say this on multiple streams on mirai live, in this video at 16:33 he's saying this again. Reduce the rootball enough to fit a bonsai pot, it's a kill it or make a bonsai moment... but following that logic, why not bare root? why not make more drastic moves on initial stages material? Either you are going to kill the tree or save alot of future hassle, it's better to lose a tree that you have not put work in, than lose it years later after alot of time investment right?

I tend to be more severe with my trees initial work, be it nursery stock or collected, bare rooting, pruning alot of roots, removing more foliage and branches than recommended and have been successfull... pines, junipers, BRTs, other natives, lost only 1 tree in the past 2 years. Of course i stay on top of the aftercare treatment, i do have a green house to help and my climate is alot different than those at colder countries.

But take everything im saying with a grain of salt, i have not been in the bonsai game for long and i have only around 40 trees, not even close to most people here.

I would like to know why people don't risk being more severe, high risk high reward right? kill it or make a bonsai.
 
So, he's saying that in the context of a tree that was literally *just* dug up. There wasn't any earlier root work to have been done, that was step 1.

If the outcomes are kill it or make it a bonsai, that implies there a an X% chance the tree lives(or dies). Why lower that percentage of success by doing more drastic work?
 
I think that's a little too black or white. Just because a tree doesn't die, doesn't mean you haven't caused severe die back or set yourself back many years. In my experience I can do pretty much whatever I want to a juniper as long as my after care is good. But pushing a juniper to the brink of death (especially if it wasn't vigorous to begin with) is setting yourself up for years of waiting for a tree to regain health, while deflecting all the pests it's going to be susceptible to while it's weak
 
If it feels right to you just do it, maybe start some threads and document the results with your approaches like so many have done before you.
 
I've seen ryan neil say this on multiple streams on mirai live, in this video at 16:33 he's saying this again. Reduce the rootball enough to fit a bonsai pot, it's a kill it or make a bonsai moment... but following that logic, why not bare root? why not make more drastic moves on initial stages material? Either you are going to kill the tree or save alot of future hassle, it's better to lose a tree that you have not put work in, than lose it years later after alot of time investment right?

I tend to be more severe with my trees initial work, be it nursery stock or collected, bare rooting, pruning alot of roots, removing more foliage and branches than recommended and have been successfull... pines, junipers, BRTs, other natives, lost only 1 tree in the past 2 years. Of course i stay on top of the aftercare treatment, i do have a green house to help and my climate is alot different than those at colder countries.

But take everything im saying with a grain of salt, i have not been in the bonsai game for long and i have only around 40 trees, not even close to most people here.

I would like to know why people don't risk being more severe, high risk high reward right? kill it or make a bonsai.
I think what he's talking about is not simply relying on getting a huge root mass that probably isn't all that necessary for the tree. He's saying trying (and getting) an overly large root mass because you're overcautious adds not only to your burden, but the tree's by making it mostly unworkable.

It's a sliding scale depending on species for the most part. Many deciduous trees DON'T NEED all that much root at collection to pull through. Elms, hornbeam, wisteria, bald cypress and more than a few other species don't need feeder roots at collection really. They don't require a shovel to get them. A simple pruning saw or battery-powered reciprocal saw are all the collection equipment you need to get them. They aren't dug, they're sawed out of the ground and put into regular bonsai soil in the smallest container you can manage. A few feeder roots can help, but they aren't as critical to say, a pine.

Knowing the species you're collecting helps. I can't understand those posts that ask "what kind of tree is this" AFTER it's been dug up. That approach can set you back years.
 
I think what he's talking about is not simply relying on getting a huge root mass that probably isn't all that necessary for the tree. He's saying trying (and getting) an overly large root mass because you're overcautious adds not only to your burden, but the tree's by making it mostly unworkable.

It's a sliding scale depending on species for the most part. Many deciduous trees DON'T NEED all that much root at collection to pull through. Elms, hornbeam, wisteria, bald cypress and more than a few other species don't need feeder roots at collection really. They don't require a shovel to get them. A simple pruning saw or battery-powered reciprocal saw are all the collection equipment you need to get them. They aren't dug, they're sawed out of the ground and put into regular bonsai soil in the smallest container you can manage. A few feeder roots can help, but they aren't as critical to say, a pine.

Knowing the species you're collecting helps. I can't understand those posts that ask "what kind of tree is this" AFTER it's been dug up. That approach can set you back years.
an overly large root mass because you're overcautious adds not only to your burden, but the tree's by making it mostly unworkable: I have learned that if I keep a very large root mass, the feeder roots I develop will not be usable for my bonsai. So when I move them from my training pot to my bonsai pot, it is like collecting the tree all over again. The only difference is that the second time around, the tree may not be healthy enough to survive.

Knowing the species you're collecting helps. I learned this lesson hard. Lost a few trees along the way. Found out what I do to bald cypress will kill my Mayhaw.
 
This video was not made for YouTube. None of Ryan's videos are made for YouTube. They're made for Mirai subscribers who are paying a pretty expensive monthly fee even for the basic version and even more for the pro version, and these are both much higher than (say) Netflix or most other video services. Those subscribers are mostly beginners relative to the average full-time professional or full-time amateur. They expect that for their money Ryan will teach them a predictable reliable way to yield an amazing bonsai out of basically any species.

Ryan has to aim for the middle because he knows most subscribers aren't repotting for hundreds of hours a year and will never be comfortable with major root disturbances. And yet, at least one or two very major root disturbances are required to get through to the main part of Ryan's "vortex" model.

The big headline: In order for the majority of the fun stuff on Mirai videos to unlocked for a Mirai subscriber, they are required to work the roots significantly and to make progress towards a homogenous soil and a root system that is primed for fine ramification. They can't skip doing this to the core of the root ball (aka the shin/sheen/heart/core/whatever) either, or at least not for long. There's no point to any canopy design work if the roots are a sour anaerobic spaghetti time bomb.

This is why Ryan has a catch phrase that pushes the idea of taking a big deep breath and doing the risky-yet-necessary thing -- None of the rest of Mirai's teaching make any sense whatsoever if the subscriber avoids doing the necessary thing. Major root disturbance (repotting, collecting) is the riskiest operation in bonsai but Ryan is trying to communicate that you must power through that step while making measurable progress towards your goal and while there is still a lot of stored energy in a tree. If you dawdle and slip pot instead of working the roots, you will just put off the inevitable.

As a long-time Mirai subscriber, IMO, all of this is part of a bigger struggle for Ryan which he's had for years and is a severe conceptual communication debt from which he's trying to dig out of with recent lectures. It's been hard for him to communicate the actual goals of bonsai development techniques to people who are arriving in full beginner mode and, sometimes even after watching years of Mirai videos are still asking questions like "when I can start trimming this <tree that's still in nursery soil>" or "when's the best time to trim a <species X that just came out of the ground or nursery>".

Similarly on reddit a lot of subscribers routinely proudly announce that they've just repotted a tree, but don't worry, "I didn't disturb the roots and just slip potted so the tree can get bigger". Cool, but (in Ryan's Mirai school of thinking, don't shoot the messenger) this is racing away from the goal and also ignoring the steps that actually unlock morphological attributes of bonsai through deliberate root system modifications over time.

In summary, my interpretation as a long term Mirai subscriber: "kill it or make it bonsai" is about saying to Mirai subscribers "I know it is hard to accept that root system and soil manipulation is this damn important this early on when you're just trying to find out if it's okay to fuck around with pruning or whatever this weekend but none of the rest of it works if you don't do this one thing that requires a huge leap of faith".

But yeah, as @rockm says, if you know what you're doing from lots of exeprience, you can go farther in that first step. I've bare rooted more pines than I can count because I have pumice, lava, sun, Oregon climate, heat mats, often work with very young pines, and have zero issues with waiting for a pine to put on lots of mass before working on it. I'd also frankly with a lot of material actually kill it or make it a bonsai because I do not have room or time to screw around waiting for magic to happen in native soil. I'd rather boot up a pine in pure pumice right away knowing that in a year or two I'll be good to go for real. Better than to blow the proverbial load on fun wiring or "trimming" which then ends up wasting years.
 
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I think it’s about taking risks to a certain threshold. And knowing how much a tree can take. I think it’s also about not losing a tree a person likes. If they are working on it chances are they like it.
but to know how far you can push, you gotta test the limits no?

So, he's saying that in the context of a tree that was literally *just* dug up. There wasn't any earlier root work to have been done, that was step 1.

If the outcomes are kill it or make it a bonsai, that implies there a an X% chance the tree lives(or dies). Why lower that percentage of success by doing more drastic work?

but wouldn't it make it easier to work the tree in the future if it does survive a more drastic first intervention?
 
I think that's a little too black or white. Just because a tree doesn't die, doesn't mean you haven't caused severe die back or set yourself back many years. In my experience I can do pretty much whatever I want to a juniper as long as my after care is good. But pushing a juniper to the brink of death (especially if it wasn't vigorous to begin with) is setting yourself up for years of waiting for a tree to regain health, while deflecting all the pests it's going to be susceptible to while it's weak
Well, this is where my lack of experience and the difference in material that i have to work here in brazil may make things different from you guys, my junipers (only 7 of them) are either field grown or straight nursery stock, i don't have the old yamadori junipers that you guys have. But mine exploded with growth after being bare rooted and pruned, and i don't have much problem with pests...

Tropicals are an entirely different beast, like your bald cypress, i can cut most of our natives straight from a 30 ft tall tree to a stump, hack all the roots back and it will just grow from there.
 
If it feels right to you just do it, maybe start some threads and document the results with your approaches like so many have done before you.
i will start some threads, im just bad at taking photos, when i finish doing something e remember that i forgot to take a picture from before to compare... but im trying to take more pictures lately.
 
I think what he's talking about is not simply relying on getting a huge root mass that probably isn't all that necessary for the tree. He's saying trying (and getting) an overly large root mass because you're overcautious adds not only to your burden, but the tree's by making it mostly unworkable.

It's a sliding scale depending on species for the most part. Many deciduous trees DON'T NEED all that much root at collection to pull through. Elms, hornbeam, wisteria, bald cypress and more than a few other species don't need feeder roots at collection really. They don't require a shovel to get them. A simple pruning saw or battery-powered reciprocal saw are all the collection equipment you need to get them. They aren't dug, they're sawed out of the ground and put into regular bonsai soil in the smallest container you can manage. A few feeder roots can help, but they aren't as critical to say, a pine.

Knowing the species you're collecting helps. I can't understand those posts that ask "what kind of tree is this" AFTER it's been dug up. That approach can set you back years.
Exactly, but even though elms, bald cypress and those other species you said are resilient and can be bare rooted more heavily worked on the roots, ryan still doesn't bare root them, and says that you should NEVER bare root because you are risking the tree. I think that the question should be them, how much are you willing to risk now to get a step ahead later? that said i don't have the types of trees that he works on...
 
I have learned that if I keep a very large root mass, the feeder roots I develop will not be usable for my bonsai. So when I move them from my training pot to my bonsai pot, it is like collecting the tree all over again. The only difference is that the second time around, the tree may not be healthy enough to survive.
I bought a native last month that was collected 4 years ago, the guy did not repot since, now i will have to do exactly that, the roots are very deep on the nursery container and when i repot i will probably have to remove like 80 to 90% of the thick roots that developed on the field soil...
 
This video was not made for YouTube. None of Ryan's videos are made for YouTube. They're made for Mirai subscribers who are paying a pretty expensive monthly fee even for the basic version and even more for the pro version, and these are both much higher than (say) Netflix or most other video services. Those subscribers are mostly beginners relative to the average full-time professional or full-time amateur. They expect that for their money Ryan will teach them a predictable reliable way to yield an amazing bonsai out of basically any species.

Ryan has to aim for the middle because he knows most subscribers aren't repotting for hundreds of hours a year and will never be comfortable with major root disturbances. And yet, at least one or two very major root disturbances are required to get through to the main part of Ryan's "vortex" model.

The big headline: In order for the majority of the fun stuff on Mirai videos to unlocked for a Mirai subscriber, they are required to work the roots significantly and to make progress towards a homogenous soil and a root system that is primed for fine ramification. They can't skip doing this to the core of the root ball (aka the shin/sheen/heart/core/whatever) either, or at least not for long. There's no point to any canopy design work if the roots are a sour anaerobic spaghetti time bomb.

This is why Ryan has a catch phrase that pushes the idea of taking a big deep breath and doing the risky-yet-necessary thing -- None of the rest of Mirai's teaching make any sense whatsoever if the subscriber avoids doing the necessary thing. Major root disturbance (repotting, collecting) is the riskiest operation in bonsai but Ryan is trying to communicate that you must power through that step while making measurable progress towards your goal and while there is still a lot of stored energy in a tree. If you dawdle and slip pot instead of working the roots, you will just put off the inevitable.

As a long-time Mirai subscriber, IMO, all of this is part of a bigger struggle for Ryan which he's had for years and is a severe conceptual communication debt from which he's trying to dig out of with recent lectures. It's been hard for him to communicate the actual goals of bonsai development techniques to people who are arriving in full beginner mode and, sometimes even after watching years of Mirai videos are still asking questions like "when I can start trimming this <tree that's still in nursery soil>" or "when's the best time to trim a <species X that just came out of the ground or nursery>".

Similarly on reddit a lot of subscribers routinely proudly announce that they've just repotted a tree, but don't worry, "I didn't disturb the roots and just slip potted so the tree can get bigger". Cool, but (in Ryan's Mirai school of thinking, don't shoot the messenger) this is racing away from the goal and also ignoring the steps that actually unlock morphological attributes of bonsai through deliberate root system modifications over time.

In summary, my interpretation as a long term Mirai subscriber: "kill it or make it bonsai" is about saying to Mirai subscribers "I know it is hard to accept that root system and soil manipulation is this damn important this early on when you're just trying to find out if it's okay to fuck around with pruning or whatever this weekend but none of the rest of it works if you don't do this one thing that requires a huge leap of faith".

But yeah, as @rockm says, if you know what you're doing from lots of exeprience, you can go farther in that first step. I've bare rooted more pines than I can count because I have pumice, lava, sun, Oregon climate, heat mats, often work with very young pines, and have zero issues with waiting for a pine to put on lots of mass before working on it. I'd also frankly with a lot of material actually kill it or make it a bonsai because I do not have room or time to screw around waiting for magic to happen in native soil. I'd rather boot up a pine in pure pumice right away knowing that in a year or two I'll be good to go for real. Better than to blow the proverbial load on fun wiring or "trimming" which then ends up wasting years.
I'm a mirai live pro subscriber and you put it better than i ever could. When he explained his vortex concept this stayed in my mind, why not just bareroot?
But the climate, facilities, species and other factors indeed influence in the decision of risking more or going for a safer approach

I don't really have any refined trees, but every single tree i have is on 100% bonsai substrate, first thing i have done with every single one was repot and prune everything back to something workable / usable, yes, some will have years if not decades ahead, but at least now i can be more at ease knowing that the worst work has been done and it will probably be okay in any future procedures i make. Like you said, in my opinion, i also agree that it's better to risk it now than to wire and develop a canopy just for it to die later at a more severe work on the roots.
 
i will start some threads, im just bad at taking photos, when i finish doing something e remember that i forgot to take a picture from before to compare... but im trying to take more pictures lately.
at least if you kill a few on the way, nobody will see then;)
 
If a tree is healthy you can get away with a lot. If a tree is unhealthy you won't get away with a lot.

The key is knowing how far you are on either side of the health pendulum and act accordingly. The only way to somewhat know this is know the species you're dealing with and just having time under your belt with a particular tree.
 
I think that's a little too black or white. Just because a tree doesn't die, doesn't mean you haven't caused severe die back or set yourself back many years. In my experience I can do pretty much whatever I want to a juniper as long as my after care is good. But pushing a juniper to the brink of death (especially if it wasn't vigorous to begin with) is setting yourself up for years of waiting for a tree to regain health, while deflecting all the pests it's going to be susceptible to while it's weak

This is a very sound advice, specially about junipers.
 
Exactly, but even though elms, bald cypress and those other species you said are resilient and can be bare rooted more heavily worked on the roots, ryan still doesn't bare root them, and says that you should NEVER bare root because you are risking the tree. I think that the question should be them, how much are you willing to risk now to get a step ahead later? that said i don't have the types of trees that he works on...
Most maples are bare rooted more than once.
Conifers are riskier though.
 
an overly large root mass because you're overcautious adds not only to your burden, but the tree's by making it mostly unworkable: I have learned that if I keep a very large root mass, the feeder roots I develop will not be usable for my bonsai. So when I move them from my training pot to my bonsai pot, it is like collecting the tree all over again. The only difference is that the second time around, the tree may not be healthy enough to survive.
This is also the approach I have developed over many years of trial and error. Almost all new roots grow from the cut ends of the old roots. At some stage you will need to reduce the old roots back enough to fit into a bonsai pot or you will never have a real bonsai. Earlier attempts where I made cautious root reductions survived and I developed good branching with lots of ramification. Then I needed to do the more severe root reduction to get that tree into the desirable bonsai pot. That's obviously? more risky to severely reduce the roots on a tree with extensive branching than it would be to reduce roots on the original stump so now I bite the bullet and reduce roots first.
Knowing the species helps. Maples, elms and azaleas can have all roots chopped real short with better than 90% survival. Pines and junipers need more roots at all times and more care after root reduction.
ryan still doesn't bare root them, and says that you should NEVER bare root because you are risking the tree.
Even though he is a celeb maybe Ryan does not know all there is to know. I certainly have no problem bare rooting most deciduous trees here. I find it is much safer to get rid of field soil sooner than risk the health of the tree with lots of filed soil in a pot. Everyone is free to do bonsai their own way, even if it is wrong.
 
Climate, experience, aftercare, tree health. Keep those in balance to eachother.

RIsking a tree by doing something stupid which the tree is not ready for is not a good approach to bonsai. So a claim of kill it or make a bonsai I find a pretty stupid way to approach bonsai.

There is SO MUCH experience out there upon which even the greenest beginner can build there is no reason to do stupid trials anymore "just so you know how far you can go". Go as far as people have shown you can go. This can be pretty far. But use other persons experience.

And do not draw information from just one source. There is a part truth and a part personal conviction in every persons' advice. If you hear the same thing 4 out of 5 times from experienced persons, you can be pretty sure it is not complete rubbish advice. Does not mean that the outlier is wrong though.
 
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