Juniper holger first styling

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Omono
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I didn't intend to be one of the ones always pissing you off. I just get defensive sometimes and protective of fellow n00bs. I also liked it better when you were smokier. And by "cheeseball" I meant "goofball". I like to crack jokes. I know not everyone likes that.

I don't want to turn this thread into RN Part II but I do enjoy his videos and I've learned a lot. I was gifted a tier 2 membership by my girlfriend. I'm sure I could learn everything he teaches elsewhere but I like his style and I enjoy watching the videos. One nugget I've taken away is the importance of keeping a balance between water and oxygen and to choose soil components that facilitate that. I have a lot more to learn about it but it was a good primer.
 

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You also posed a question in the other thread that warrants a response. What am I going for here? Not a super thick juniper. I'm also not looking for instant bonsai. I actually want this guy to progress slow. Take my time and enjoy the development. I wanted a feminine, airy look & feel. I don't want to put it in the ground but I also don't want to put it into a pot yet. That's a few years away. It is at the height I want. I had originally intended to put it into my lace rock but now I don't think that's a good fit.
 

Bananaman

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It would be nice if I could get to the end of this post without a bunch of debate in the middle. I will make a about four posts over the next half an hour and I would appreciate you following along but hold comments till I'm finished and then you can rip it to shreds while I hide in the shark tank!
I don't know wnything about the species so I can't comment about that. I have no idea about its growth habits or how it trunks up over time.

Since you tell me your in the Hort trade I'm sure some of this stuff you already know. But since others will read this I will repeat it here for others. If a large bonsai is wanted there are two junipers that grow large very fast. San Jose and Prostrata. san Jose is best for a chunky trunk but prostrata will get lots of curves which is what most people want. Full size Procumbens is good too. but hard to find. Not "nana" but the full size species. In Japan it is called "Sonare". It grows along the ground like a snake and makes wonderful bonsai when it can be turned upright. Kimura has used it alot and grafts shimpaku on it.

So big tree. If thats choice one, bad news.
Lets look at the tree. I'm using this view thru out for no particular reason. I looked at the other views and if there was a better one I would use it.

20180725_172606.jpg

The tree has a pleasing little crook at the base which is good. It adds some interest. The trunk moves up and some back and forth has been introduced. It is very contrived and looks super man made. Movement should be curving with a natural look to it. Nature really never makes an abrupt 45 degree turn for no reason. Always keep that in mind. after the first bend it comes up and then sharply turns back the other way, almost equal in length dividing the tree into perfect thirds. Again this is not natural.
The two bends make an unusually straight section in the middle of the tree.
red 1.jpg
The branches are devoid of any green things here. I have no idea if they were removed and why that would be so. It would benefit greatly by reducing each branch by half, but there is nothing to cut to. This is a beginner mistake I see al the time in workshops. many time the instructor will just tell everyone to "clean them up". What he means is to clean the crotches and prune away dead stems. Not take all the foliage off the branches leaving pom poms out on the ends. We leave nothing to reduce to.

The tree has been wired, and some foliage pads organized.
red 2.jpg
red 3.jpg

What we have here is the good ole 1,2,3 back branch configuration. Very two dimensional with the three main foliage tufts making the tree in a flat plane and a bar branch bent out the back making a back branch for depth. (in blue) Now let me stop here for a minute. This is a pretty good first go at a tree. With some detail wire and some moving around it would be nice, if you wish to settle.

Who wants to settle ..I don't.

So one of the things that those that have known me for the last 10,000 posts is that I always say to look for the best smallest tree in the material. sometimes that means cutting off 75 percent of the tree just to get the one small gem. layers, cuttings, and all that jazz, do them if you must but I don't have time and they just lose up my backyard with a bunch of unsightly pots with 50 cent cuttings in them.

So what if we cut the whole damn tree of at the first branch. Left the one coming off to the left. It has a good taper coming off the main trunk and it has a lot of divisions from what I could tell in the earlier picture. All of the divisions will become a branch. I have no way to demonstrate that here but could show you in detail if you were a student. What if we took that trunk with the branch moving off to the left wired it hard with maybe no. 10 or even maybe no. 12 copper. that would be all we would need. bend that puppy back on itself to the right moving the apex back over the root base to add balance.

Wire out those small branches down to the last bit of green with 2mm aluminum wire and fan them out real nice. I know I could do it and I know others can too. Give it a year or two and work on it. then you can pot it up when its in peak condition.

virtual.jpg

Now this is just a small shohin type tree, but it is a direction one can go from what you called "butchered". If you wish to go the big route just remember it will take about 15 years and letting whips grow (runners) is not the way to build a trunk for bonsai. Anyone that tells you that is bull shit. Junipers grow into monster trunks with twists and turn all the time in yards that get pruned every couple of weeks with hedgers. Its what makes a compact fat trunk. If you just let it go you will get runners and it will get fat, and about 5 feet long and about 1 inch around. thats it!

Hope you make this into something, I wouldn't do it now you already used about 7 lives this year. Cheers dude.
 

Bananaman

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Ok did it in one
have at it.

I'm going to my gilrfriends house. I'll check in later and read all the crap.
 

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Lots of good stuff. I have to leave for work in one minute so I’ll digest and give feedback later. I really appreciate you taking the time. :)
 

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This is fascinating and good stuff. I really appreciate your advice. I do have some comments. Not to disagree but for clarification or to explain what I was thinking.

The tree has a pleasing little crook at the base which is good. It adds some interest. The trunk moves up and some back and forth has been introduced. It is very contrived and looks super man made. Movement should be curving with a natural look to it. Nature really never makes an abrupt 45 degree turn for no reason.

Yeah, it didn't quite work the way I intended. I don't like artificial-looking movement but my novice hands went and did it anyway. What I was going for what a tree that had been knocked over and was trying to right itself. I'm hoping the curves will soften with age. I've read that you should exaggerate in youth so they smooth out but I think that was for trunks that fatten a lot so I got it wrong.

Always keep that in mind. after the first bend it comes up and then sharply turns back the other way, almost equal in length dividing the tree into perfect thirds. Again this is not natural.
The two bends make an unusually straight section in the middle of the tree.

Dammit, I did not mean to do that. I hadn't even noticed that flaw until you pointed it out. I will say that it isn't quite as bad in person. There is 3D movement and it twists instead of just being a sideways bend but yeah, I messed that up, too.

The branches are devoid of any green things here. I have no idea if they were removed and why that would be so. It would benefit greatly by reducing each branch by half, but there is nothing to cut to. This is a beginner mistake I see al the time in workshops. many time the instructor will just tell everyone to "clean them up". What he means is to clean the crotches and prune away dead stems. Not take all the foliage off the branches leaving pom poms out on the ends. We leave nothing to reduce to.

That I actually did do on purpose. Again, it didn't turn out as I an envisioned. What I had in my head was something like shown here:

IMG_0423.JPG

IMG_0424.JPG

I wanted to be able to see the branch. I'm thinking now that my error was to do it with all branches. Or do you think that's just always a bad idea?

The tree has been wired, and some foliage pads organized.

What we have here is the good ole 1,2,3 back branch configuration. Very two dimensional with the three main foliage tufts making the tree in a flat plane and a bar branch bent out the back making a back branch for depth. (in blue) Now let me stop here for a minute. This is a pretty good first go at a tree. With some detail wire and some moving around it would be nice, if you wish to settle.

It isn't completely two dimensional in person but yeah, I get your point. I actually did try to bend the one branch further towards the back but then I thought it looked too off balance. Just a whole swing and a miss.

So what if we cut the whole damn tree of at the first branch. Left the one coming off to the left. It has a good taper coming off the main trunk and it has a lot of divisions from what I could tell in the earlier picture. All of the divisions will become a branch. I have no way to demonstrate that here but could show you in detail if you were a student. What if we took that trunk with the branch moving off to the left wired it hard with maybe no. 10 or even maybe no. 12 copper. that would be all we would need. bend that puppy back on itself to the right moving the apex back over the root base to add balance.

Wire out those small branches down to the last bit of green with 2mm aluminum wire and fan them out real nice. I know I could do it and I know others can too. Give it a year or two and work on it. then you can pot it up when its in peak condition.

Fascinating. I had never considered doing that. Not sure I want to but when I get home tonight I am going to take a long hard look at it. More than once. Hell, I probably won't decide this year. If I do go that route, when should I chop it? Late winter? Early spring?

Now this is just a small shohin type tree, but it is a direction one can go from what you called "butchered". If you wish to go the big route just remember it will take about 15 years and letting whips grow (runners) is not the way to build a trunk for bonsai. Anyone that tells you that is bull shit. Junipers grow into monster trunks with twists and turn all the time in yards that get pruned every couple of weeks with hedgers. Its what makes a compact fat trunk. If you just let it go you will get runners and it will get fat, and about 5 feet long and about 1 inch around. thats it!

I did not know that. I'm not a grower here so I still have tons to learn about growth habits.

Hope you make this into something, I wouldn't do it now you already used about 7 lives this year. Cheers dude.

Thank you again for taking the time. I very much appreciate all the feedback from you and everyone else.
 

Bananaman

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I can't speak for the big juniper with the guy drooling wanting to dig it out. That is the work of nature and hard to duplicate.

The tree with Ryan is a little different. First of all we don't know if the branches had anything on them in the first place. I don't think, knowing Ryan that it is something he would do intentionally. I think he just made use of the long spindly branches and used then ti fill out a silhouette he was trying to achieve. Do notice that they are meticulously wired and bent up pretty good to fit in.
 

Bananaman

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I didn't intend to be one of the ones always pissing you off. I just get defensive sometimes and protective of fellow n00bs. I also liked it better when you were smokier. And by "cheeseball" I meant "goofball". I like to crack jokes. I know not everyone likes that.

I don't want to turn this thread into RN Part II but I do enjoy his videos and I've learned a lot. I was gifted a tier 2 membership by my girlfriend. I'm sure I could learn everything he teaches elsewhere but I like his style and I enjoy watching the videos. One nugget I've taken away is the importance of keeping a balance between water and oxygen and to choose soil components that facilitate that. I have a lot more to learn about it but it was a good primer.


Thats quite a comment since I have been touting air exchange and it value over akadama for two decades. What I mean is, the shape of akadama provides good air exchange because of its shape. Is it necessary....no.

Buy Ryan said it so it must be good ..right......

Thats the kind of thing I'm talkin about. These guys are just like you and me and put their pants on one leg at a time. I know dozens of Japanese trained experts and let me tell you they know how to use bailing wire just like you and me. Don't get caught up in the hype...its very expensive.
 

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Ok, so, what I decided to do this year was to repot it and just bend the piss out of it. No trimming for now, just going to let it grow this year and then take another look at it next year and see what took and what I like, don't like. Some of the branches will be removed for jins at some point but I want them to thicken some. I'm also leaving on the table just cutting it all back like Smoke suggested. I can always do that later and if nothing else it will be thicker.

2019-03-23 15.45.13.jpg
 
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