Juniper holger first styling

Cable

Omono
Messages
1,371
Reaction score
2,189
Location
Sheffield Village, Ohio
USDA Zone
6a
Last fall I found a juniper holger that I liked. I held onto it throughout the winter and gave it a first styling yesterday. Before you're too hard on me remember that this is my very first full styling and wiring! I did a crape myrtle last year in a workshop that had like 3 pieces of wire crudely applied. lol.

On, and I had some trouble with the main trunk wire. Turns out cold 6mm wire is very hard to bend! I couldn't keep it tight to the trunk like I wanted.

This is two hours of work condensed to 11-1/2 minutes.

 

defra

Masterpiece
Messages
3,237
Reaction score
5,992
Location
The netherlands Zone 8b
USDA Zone
8b
I applaud for your effort!
You reduced allot of foliage in one go i hope its not to much!

I see a literati future!
 

Cable

Omono
Messages
1,371
Reaction score
2,189
Location
Sheffield Village, Ohio
USDA Zone
6a
I was worried that it was too much but it all just needed to go. I'm banking on the fact that I didn't mess with the roots so it should be poised for strong growth this spring.
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,913
Reaction score
45,598
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
just something to ponder while observing this tree and this.....

I'm banking on the fact that I didn't mess with the roots so it should be poised for strong growth this spring

Mirai teaches of energy reserves and this of Juniperus storing energy in the foliage is not only true, but once you understand it...you can observe on any tree how and why this is so...this is a mega key for understanding why something happens after you did it.

Anyway....

In that the roots of a juniper have no energy stores, they are merely a water source that is almost exactly mirrored top and bottom, so any "extra" roots downstairs that had connection to what you cut off will likely die, or are on a futile mission to redirect water piping structure in an effort to somehow keep them alive and feeding whats left.....

However...Resorce....this is why this becomes futile....
Some of what little stored energy that's left in the minimal foliage is going to what the tree naturally wants to do....change that piping and keep living....
They survive this on the mountain, hence the character! In a pot, they die!
Even on the mountain, one snow won't remove a branch, it merely snaps it and allows the tree to begin x years of piping reconfiguration. The tree recovers before all the foilage is removed in the next avalanche.

This is why v-notching branches on junipers works....and why slow removal of pine foliage can safely fully remove sacrifice branches.

So it seems this is where the...."balanced top and bottom" comes from...
Why...at this point, you MAY be better off repotting it now....
But thats futile because until the old roots that were connected to the removed foliage die....you have really no idea which roots you can safely remove. (This is a DIFFICULT visual cue situation)

From nursery stock then...
It seems the safest/fastest schedule is no more than 20% removal of only the most offending branches..(remember juniper IS jin and deadwood, so allowing knuckles to form only gives us future interest, leave it on!)

This 80% of foliage left will power you through a spring, summer dormancy, or if you must and can provide warm bottom, fall repot, in the same year....Bonsai Pot if ready to style.
Training pot/ground if not.

This leaves us in the Easiest state to get visual cues the tree is ready to style...
Runners. (All the energy.) Don't touch it till you have them. Keep em attached till they set wired branches ...so on so on waiting for this easy visual clue as we move the foliage pads back, and into divided shape.

Second Fastest...Style first
The other Possible way for the impatient to style....um....me! Lol!

This one is easier to understand since we understand the above.

In order to get this tree into a pot, you must wait for it to Regrow back into what would have been that 20% removal.
X years....you removed about 80% so you must regrow 60% before potting.

Where a tree styled with removal down to 70% of the foliage, only needs to Regrow 10% back..

In this, we must find a balance...
There is no wrong way....if your tree survives....it will have character only this provided.

The most important thing to remember is FOLIAGE IS WHAT IS GOING TO DETERMINE THE SPEED AT WHICH THIS BECOMES BONSAI.

......

It is extremely hard to not want to style a tree in the first year.
But if we can wait...we are near garaunteed to come up with a better idea by the next year, our trees won't die...and we can have excellent trees much faster.

The problem is newbs go out and get 600 j's and do this to them all which only exponentially increases their waiting time...

If done the fastest, smartest, safest, most conducive to he who wants to have dope trees way...

Simply having enough wire will become a challenge!

Love that you made a video.
I'd love a bit more engaging soundtrack next time ..
And to not be able too see inside at what you did to know what changed!
So there can be a Part 2 with an even doper soundtrack! And a pimp ass living tree!

Sorce
 

Cable

Omono
Messages
1,371
Reaction score
2,189
Location
Sheffield Village, Ohio
USDA Zone
6a
Great stuff, Sorce, and I appreciate you posting it. I will refer back to it often.

We'll see how the ol' girl does!

Music tastes vary but I'll see what I can do for next time. lol.
 

Cable

Omono
Messages
1,371
Reaction score
2,189
Location
Sheffield Village, Ohio
USDA Zone
6a
Still a long way to go before it is out of the woods but I see some nice new growth coming in.

20180503_192517.jpg
20180503_192523.jpg
20180503_192532.jpg
 

Cable

Omono
Messages
1,371
Reaction score
2,189
Location
Sheffield Village, Ohio
USDA Zone
6a
Ok, so it is looking like my plan worked, this guy is doing great.

20180725_172606.jpg20180725_172619.jpg20180725_172632.jpg

How long should I let those runners go before it is safe to trim them back into shape?

I'm planning to leave it in this pot until spring. I'll also remove the wire at that time since it still isn't biting in.
 

Cable

Omono
Messages
1,371
Reaction score
2,189
Location
Sheffield Village, Ohio
USDA Zone
6a
I was trying to rebuild strength after I butchered it this spring. I'm just not sure how far to take that. I keep hearing to let runners run to build strength but never hear how long it takes for that to happen. I was hoping @sorce would tell me. lol

This is where I started...

20180317_164829.jpg20180317_164856.jpg
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,978
Reaction score
7,837
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
I thought that leaving a branch to grow would also stimulate back budding if light was getting in.
I wouldn't remove anything else this year. Minimal thinning at most in too tight areas (breathe/light)

Let those runners open up and produce the foliage they want to.
Also, this will give more girth both to the trunk, but any flimsy branch left to grow will become mightier.

NEXT time...don't fight yourself on it. You're needing back budding now, in places where years of growth was removed.
It will take years to recoup that tighter closer in, secondary/tertiary branching. Lots of food, and some thinning as time goes.
Eh, it was fun at the time anyway, else you wouldn't have posted the video and you didn't kill the juniper :)
Had you repotted it too, the odds of killing it would've increased several fold.

Spring potting 2019, phh, grow it out in the ground this Fall minimal root disturbance, then a grow box or something 2021.
That would be 2 growing seasons in ground, more is better, but the roots could certainly be worked and put back in the ground
before a grow box or similar.
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,978
Reaction score
7,837
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
ED IT...you'll want to remove that wire before you put it in the ground.
You'll want to rewire it regardless of what you do with it hereafter.
A couple crossings and size choices should be attended to and put more movement
into the straight branches to echo the trunk (2 bottom branches).
The 1st branch should utilize copper, the upper 1/3 of the trunk, could use closer windings
which would need smaller wire with more windings, and copper certainly helps there.
It's also more incognito.
 

Bananaman

Chumono
Messages
668
Reaction score
1,569
Is this the post you were talking about?

If it is I have an in depth write up to provide for you if you wish. This is classic material and the pitfalls you have already fallen into.
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,913
Reaction score
45,598
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
o build strength

I see them as the Strength itself.
The strength to grow roots, overcome a wiring, get root hacked, etc.

"Strength in the foliage"

That is where it IS!

It takes quite a well built branch/pad/blah..
To replace the necessity of healthy runners on it.

Can't be.."tidied up for the show".
Until it's ready for the show!

Sorce
 

Cable

Omono
Messages
1,371
Reaction score
2,189
Location
Sheffield Village, Ohio
USDA Zone
6a
Is this the post you were talking about?

If it is I have an in depth write up to provide for you if you wish. This is classic material and the pitfalls you have already fallen into.

If you are willing yes I would appreciate that. I know this isn't great stock and I know I made lots of mistakes but this was also the first time I ever did a full-on trim and wire. I messed it up but I did have fun and I'm learning from my mistakes. It will never be a quality specimen but I will still enjoy it. :)
 

Cable

Omono
Messages
1,371
Reaction score
2,189
Location
Sheffield Village, Ohio
USDA Zone
6a
Can't be.."tidied up for the show".
Until it's ready for the show!

To paraphrase the great Jim Mora...

What’s that? Ah — Show? Don’t talk about — show? You kidding me? show? I just hope it lives!
 

Bananaman

Chumono
Messages
668
Reaction score
1,569
I will begin working right now. I have no idea about your time difference and you may have to catch up tomorrow. It does come with one caveat, and I will only say this once.

After reading your lead in to this tree I had only experienced you as a fly by poster. I was really surprised because listening to you talk about others trees and your own I thought you had been doing this for years. I learn this is your first tree to shape and wire and you are giving me grief, I dont get it. All I have done at this place for over twelve years is post my trees and how they have improved and wish for others to get on the same wagon with me. You have a lot to learn about bonsai and you will get far by being humble and listen to what those with more experience have to say once and a while rather than just be a cheese ball.....Ok off soapbox.

be seeing you.
 

Cable

Omono
Messages
1,371
Reaction score
2,189
Location
Sheffield Village, Ohio
USDA Zone
6a
Sorry to not be clear. I've been in the hort business for over 20 years but have only been doing bonsai for 11 months. I do wish to improve. The grief I gave was only because it seemed like you had forgotten what it was like to be new to the hobby and without a lot of discretionary income. You're a pro golfer. I do putt-putt on the weekends. I'd like to think there's room for us both.

But I am a cheeseball. :cool:
 

Bananaman

Chumono
Messages
668
Reaction score
1,569
Sorry to not be clear. I've been in the hort business for over 20 years but have only been doing bonsai for 11 months. I do wish to improve. The grief I gave was only because it seemed like you had forgotten what it was like to be new to the hobby and without a lot of discretionary income. You're a pro golfer. I do putt-putt on the weekends. I'd like to think there's room for us both.

But I am a cheeseball. :cool:
Like politics its not reality. I don't care how loud the liberals yell Trump is taking this country to places, frankly I never thought I'd see again. My 401K is thru the roof, my house value is thru the roof, I just asked my boss two months ago for a three dollar an hour raise and got it. Life is good. If you listen to the liberals the USA is crumbling before our eyes.

Its the same in bonsai, listen to the guys who are progolfers and stop busting their balls. They are here to help....sometimes. I got a life too. Be humble. stroke their ego, tote some water. Are you telling me you have not done things in your life to get somewhere. If you havn't you are going no where....fast!

Why in the hell would I want to help someone thats always pissing me off. Why? None of my posts ever start out pissed off. I get that way cause cheeseballs come in and ruin them. Bananaman came back to be the nicer kinder gentler guy you all said you wanted, but you all turned him in to that same pissed off guy he was when he bailed on 10,000 posts.

No one wants to debate the subject matter, they want to debate the typer. So far in this thread no one has told me one thing positive about the video feed, just that I should mind my own business. Anyone want to share just one nugget that you couldn't live without?
 
Top Bottom