Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
I think like other social media once it is out there it is out there.
Bonsai Nut has the power if you ask nicely.......
Bonsai Nut has the power if you ask nicely.......
Japanese maple design
- Thread starter Agriff
- Start date
Agriff
Mame
Thank you for this!! Ok this is what I was going to say the other day but ran out of time.
Would it be appropriate to cut here and wire these branches out as sub trunks?
Say I want a lot of movement, and want to end up with something like this:
Would it be appropriate to cut here and wire these branches out as sub trunks?
The branches I selected aren't too young?
How are we defining long?
Reading this, is it actually too soon to tell where to chop next, given the fact that we don't know where new buds might pop?
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
That is an amazing JM pictured. Well worth using for inspiration for design.
Yo could cut above those 2 lowest branches but I'd actually chop above the next one. Turned sideways a little that should also give you a similar trunk shape. One of the lower branches can be a sacrifice branch and be removed later.
Thos e lowest branches have already lignified and can be wired and shaped with care. Definitely watch for wire marks on thin branches like those. It may only take a few weeks for little branches to set in the new shape so remove wires earlier rather than later and risk marks.
Long internodes is a relative term. Depends on the size of the bonsai and where on the tree. Lower trunk and branches on medium or larger bonsai can get away with nodes up to 2" long but it is always better to be conservative. I would probably not keep anything over and inch long and much less if I'm trying to grow shohin size.
Always try to build flexibility into a plan. We can predict how a living thing will respond most of the time but they don't always cooperate as well as you would like. Unexpected buds could open up new opportunities while lack of new shoots could force a rethink or resort to grafts or further pruning.
Yo could cut above those 2 lowest branches but I'd actually chop above the next one. Turned sideways a little that should also give you a similar trunk shape. One of the lower branches can be a sacrifice branch and be removed later.
Thos e lowest branches have already lignified and can be wired and shaped with care. Definitely watch for wire marks on thin branches like those. It may only take a few weeks for little branches to set in the new shape so remove wires earlier rather than later and risk marks.
Long internodes is a relative term. Depends on the size of the bonsai and where on the tree. Lower trunk and branches on medium or larger bonsai can get away with nodes up to 2" long but it is always better to be conservative. I would probably not keep anything over and inch long and much less if I'm trying to grow shohin size.
Always try to build flexibility into a plan. We can predict how a living thing will respond most of the time but they don't always cooperate as well as you would like. Unexpected buds could open up new opportunities while lack of new shoots could force a rethink or resort to grafts or further pruning.
SeanS
Omono
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As @Shibui has said I’d wire any branches/shoots once they’re lignified and not green or soft.
That’s a stunning tree and one I’d try to emulate with your tree. I found some full sized JMs in a botanical garden 2 weeks ago and they’ve made me rethink how I see JM bonsai and I plan to create more natural looking trees after seeing them full sized.
I also managed to collect 530 seeds from these trees, which are now in the fridge stratifying for spring
That’s a stunning tree and one I’d try to emulate with your tree. I found some full sized JMs in a botanical garden 2 weeks ago and they’ve made me rethink how I see JM bonsai and I plan to create more natural looking trees after seeing them full sized.
I also managed to collect 530 seeds from these trees, which are now in the fridge stratifying for spring
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Those maples are only babies. Like here the climate is probably not really ideal for JM and European gardening has not been around long enough for many really good old trees but there are a few in some cooler, wetter areas over here.
I found this one in the garden of Mayday Hills - previously an insane asylum.
That tree is 2 storeys tall. Trunk is nearly a metre wide before it divides into sub trunks.
You can sort of see the way the trunks divide and end up forming branch pads further up.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Be careful where you make your cuts. If you cut at the red dots, you’re actually cutting away the first visible node. This means the tree *may* bud again at the junction where the branch exits the trunk (?), or, more likely, those branches will just die back. You need to cut, at the hardest, back to the yellow lines, so you’re more likely to get remaining buds growing.
Additionally, if you want a split trunk with a ton of taper: yes, I would chop the trunk as low as you’ve drawn, but I would not prune those first two branches I marked up at all. Instead, gently wire them to resemble the shape of the two trunks you liked in the photo above, and then let them grow for a few years. Now is a good time to do that chop. Make sure you put good movement in the first 2” of those branches, because likely everything past 2” will be pruned away later, as you’re building sections of trunk a little at a time.
In the spring, you should repot the tree, and get the surface roots straightened out, and plant the tree into a shallow, wide container, a wood box even. Then you can let those two branches grow and thicken with some movement without losing any ground to the nebari.
Additionally, if you want a split trunk with a ton of taper: yes, I would chop the trunk as low as you’ve drawn, but I would not prune those first two branches I marked up at all. Instead, gently wire them to resemble the shape of the two trunks you liked in the photo above, and then let them grow for a few years. Now is a good time to do that chop. Make sure you put good movement in the first 2” of those branches, because likely everything past 2” will be pruned away later, as you’re building sections of trunk a little at a time.
In the spring, you should repot the tree, and get the surface roots straightened out, and plant the tree into a shallow, wide container, a wood box even. Then you can let those two branches grow and thicken with some movement without losing any ground to the nebari.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Continuing on your plan. Here is likely how this tree was developed by building the trunk section by section.
Red: first chop, and resulting 2 shoots kept and allowed to grow. (This is where you are now, if you decide to chop yours. See why it’s important to get good movement in the first 2” of those remaining shoots?)
Yellow: second chop, years later and resulting shoots kept and allowed to grow.
Green: third chop, years later and resulting shoots kept and allowed to grow.
Blue: fourth section.
Red: first chop, and resulting 2 shoots kept and allowed to grow. (This is where you are now, if you decide to chop yours. See why it’s important to get good movement in the first 2” of those remaining shoots?)
Yellow: second chop, years later and resulting shoots kept and allowed to grow.
Green: third chop, years later and resulting shoots kept and allowed to grow.
Blue: fourth section.
Agriff
Mame
Ah yes, I can see how that would be misleading. I just used dots because I didn't want to cover the node in the picture, but yes I'd be pruning back to the yellow in your pic. Given your comments though, I'll hold off on doing anything.
I think I might want to hold off on a trunk chop, given that this was repotted by the previous owner just this past spring, and it does not appear to be growing super vigorously.
And thank you @Shibui ! Your feedback has been super helpful.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
Ooh just when i thought you were ready to get your feet wet with your first trunk chop, i thought ok this guy isnt ready to take the leap, then he does the 'chop low' virt and im thinking ahhhh he's ready, then he turns back away from the water line at the last minute
Agriff
Mame
I'm ready! I'm just worried the tree isn't ready. Do you think it's ok this late in the summer, with a repot earlier this spring? I've had it hammered into my head to only do one insult per season. The tree has not put out any signs of new growth since I bought it last weekend, either. But you know more about this stuff than I do!
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
where? you only just joined. for me that mainly applies to finnicky conifers but folk just apply it to anything going nowadays.
yeh i think it would be fine, the tree looks healthy.
Agriff
Mame
Welp, life got in the way and it took my a while to get the cut paste, but it got here last week. Then I decided that I wanted a more delicate too than my somewhat dulled Ace hardware pull saw, so I ordered a Joshua Roth saw and it's on its way.
Woke up this morning to see that this is the state of my maple:
A couple of things:
1) Does this change the chop timeline at all? I.e. should I wait for this damage to heal before causing any more trauma? Most of the damage is above where I would cut, but there is some bark damage below
2) Should I wait for the nice bonsai saw to arrive, or is it more important to not draw out the agony that this plant is experiencing? Saw should get here in 2-3 days
3) Just want to confirm it's still not too late for a trunk chop this year. Here in Minneapolis first freeze usually happens in November but it's not uncommon for it to happen in October.
Woke up this morning to see that this is the state of my maple:
A couple of things:
1) Does this change the chop timeline at all? I.e. should I wait for this damage to heal before causing any more trauma? Most of the damage is above where I would cut, but there is some bark damage below
2) Should I wait for the nice bonsai saw to arrive, or is it more important to not draw out the agony that this plant is experiencing? Saw should get here in 2-3 days
3) Just want to confirm it's still not too late for a trunk chop this year. Here in Minneapolis first freeze usually happens in November but it's not uncommon for it to happen in October.
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
This does not change chop timeline. This little bit of random trimming does not even compare with what you are intending to do with the saw.
A few days or even weeks does not usually make appreciable difference in a tree's timeline but I cannot comment about your local timelines.
A few days or even weeks does not usually make appreciable difference in a tree's timeline but I cannot comment about your local timelines.
Agriff
Mame
Well, The Chop™ is done.
Paste below the cut is an effort to help mitigate the squirrel damage.
Question, is there any way in hell this could root? Maybe if I stuck it in rooting powder and sphagnum moss or a tray of water? If there's any hope for it I wonder if letting it callus over for a few days (weeks?) might help.
Paste below the cut is an effort to help mitigate the squirrel damage.
Question, is there any way in hell this could root? Maybe if I stuck it in rooting powder and sphagnum moss or a tray of water? If there's any hope for it I wonder if letting it callus over for a few days (weeks?) might help.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
chop = 
What you chopped off might root. I suggest ripping the bark off on the side opposite the leaves, then bury the whole trunk piece with the leaves up (the now bare wood side down) in your favorite bonsai substrate or rooting medium. You likely will need to tent it (no leaves = no chance), but if it works, you'll have a small/short raft which could be fun, IMHO.
