Jack Pine health issue
- Thread starter BlueHeron
- Start date
Fill in your location so folks can give you applicable advice.
What type of soil is your tree in? Has it been wet or dry? Is the plant outside? What work have you done to the tree? When did the needles start showing these symptoms?
I probably won’t be able to offer much advice as I’ve never worked with Jack Pine (are they similar to pitch pine?)… but these are the questions you will probably be asked so people can help you.
What type of soil is your tree in? Has it been wet or dry? Is the plant outside? What work have you done to the tree? When did the needles start showing these symptoms?
I probably won’t be able to offer much advice as I’ve never worked with Jack Pine (are they similar to pitch pine?)… but these are the questions you will probably be asked so people can help you.
I'm in Maine. The tree is in an ALP mix, maybe a little pumice-heavy. The tree has been outside until just this week I moved it into a cold frame. I haven't watered it much this fall, but we have had some wet periods. The tree was repotted this spring with minor root disturbance and some light wiring early fall. The needles started showing the symptoms shortly after wiring, but I don't think they're related as I have other jack pines that I wired at the same time and are not showing the same signs. I think they're somewhat similar to pitch pines since they're both hardy natives with overlapping ranges, but jack pines seem less vigorous, much less back budding, 2 needle instead of 3, etc.
Is this a collected tree? Is the whole tree like this or just a few branches. Have you done any fungicide treatments through the season? My best guess would be a fungal infection of some sort but hopefully someone else chimes in. It would be unusual for wiring to have such an effect especially if it was not drastic as you suggest. If it is indeed fungal you could do an application of mancozeb which works well with pines. Im in Maine as well and we have indeed had some soggy periods. I started doing regular fungicide applications throughout the year due to past issues and have not had any problems since. Cool, wet weather can definitely set you up for issues.
Here is some info with photos on some types of blight that could effect Jack pine:
Here is some info with photos on some types of blight that could effect Jack pine:
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Personal suspicion is seasonal needle loss possibly added stress of wiring added on
. Appearance on older needles mostly says not as likely needle cast or fungus. Whole tree photo still needed.
. Appearance on older needles mostly says not as likely needle cast or fungus. Whole tree photo still needed.
MaciekA
Shohin
Jack pine is pretty closely-related to lodgepole pine and is part of the larger "contortae" group -- it's Lodgepole/Shore pine's eastern cousin. Looks really similar.
If I had needles like this on a lodgepole or shore pine, I'd first "horticulture my way out of the problem" (i.e. no chemistry just yet). No matter how bad I've seen a lodgepole or shore pine get, I've never needed to lean on chemistry to get it back to a better state. The goal is for the next generation of shoots (and the one after that) to look good. These current shoots and their needles will never improve their appearance, but 2023 shoots would hopefully look good (apologies if you know that already).
In a nutshell:
It would be useful to see the whole tree, know more about the potting, the growing environment, and the history of the material in the last 1 or 2 years.
If I had needles like this on a lodgepole or shore pine, I'd first "horticulture my way out of the problem" (i.e. no chemistry just yet). No matter how bad I've seen a lodgepole or shore pine get, I've never needed to lean on chemistry to get it back to a better state. The goal is for the next generation of shoots (and the one after that) to look good. These current shoots and their needles will never improve their appearance, but 2023 shoots would hopefully look good (apologies if you know that already).
In a nutshell:
- Water much less frequently,
- More sun,
- More air flow,
- Back off on fertilizer entirely (not really needed to revive a contorta in my experience),
- Do less work overall -- no wiring, no pruning (until better shoots emerge), just let it run vigorously and lengthen all shoots,
- Inspect deep into the soil mass in various places (and verify the entire soil mass is homogenously ALP and not slip potted around a decaying core of native soil, for example),
- Reduce the mass of soil if this tree is overpotted -- I don't think anything in the p. contorta group likes to be in excessively large soil masses, and one of the only times I've seen contorta have weak/crappy needles is from being overpotted in terms of total soil volume,
- Hasten water cycling out of the soil by tipping the pot slightly and leaving it that way between waterings,
- Perforate the pot if it's plastic to increase airflow (you can't really go wrong here, contorta is fine in a mesh basket and my summers can be much more paper-dry than Maine's),
- Surface clean of the soil -- remove all moss, junk, gunk, etc. If air can move freely from the top of the soil to the bottom, that is a good thing for this group of pines
It would be useful to see the whole tree, know more about the potting, the growing environment, and the history of the material in the last 1 or 2 years.
MaciekA
Shohin
One thing I notice from your comments is that you say "repotted with minor root disturbance" , but this seems to be a pine in development. If minor root disturbance meant slip potting and the tree has a native soil core surrounded by APL, that can be a source of some trouble (hence the note about inspection in my comment above). These pines tend to have outstanding health and durability in soil that's regionally homogenous -- pure volcanic from the interior to the exterior throughout the volume of soil -- but can really languish in a "regionally heterogenous" (i..e big blob of organic in the middle, inorganic donut of soil wrapped around it, etc) type mixture (this is true of all pines AFAIK, but I tend to have a lot more experience with contorta native-vs-granular soil situations, via collecting experience).
@MaciekA I’m not the OP but I appreciate your knowledge here as I just acquired a pinus contorta latifolia this past season and this is super helpful. That said, I did some “not minimal” bending before the cold set in here in Maine and I did not have that reaction in the needles. I also had not messed with the rootball at all as it was out of season when I acquired the tree so not identical circumstances.
This is var. Taylor’s Sunburst
This is var. Taylor’s Sunburst
MaciekA
Shohin
Nice, that is a really neat cultivar.
It would be super interesting to compare:
It would be super interesting to compare:
- jack pine,
- shore pine,
- lodgepole pine (lati / murray + whatever else),
- + a handful of their cultivars (sunburst, chief joseph, etc)
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
- Messages
- 11,427
- Reaction score
- 23,606
- USDA Zone
- 5b
My experience with Jack pine, they want sunrise to sunset full sun. Any amount of shade can lead to dropped branches on the shaded side of the tree or health problems if the whole tree gets any significant shade.
Jack pine is very cold hardy, protection in winter is likely to cause health problems. Simply set pot on ground in full sun all winter in zone 4 and warmer. Do not "greenhouse' or put in cold frame. The warmth and humidity will cause problems.
My experience pumice as potting media was good. I bare rooted to remove bark based mix.
Jack pine is very cold hardy, protection in winter is likely to cause health problems. Simply set pot on ground in full sun all winter in zone 4 and warmer. Do not "greenhouse' or put in cold frame. The warmth and humidity will cause problems.
My experience pumice as potting media was good. I bare rooted to remove bark based mix.
Calnicky
Mame
Blue Heron's Jack pine looks just like my Jack pine. I was going on the idea that our usual soggy spring, plus my overwatering it for half of the summer was causing it. In early August I realized how bad it looked and tilted it up and stopped watering every day (I moved this summer, so wasn't as attentive to my trees as I should have been). But there doesn't seem to have been any improvement. There is no banding, no brown spots. On the plus side, it doesn't seem to have gotten any worse. I'm looking forward to fresh needles in spring '23. It's in an Anderson flat in standard ALP mix. Acquired in Spring 2021 and repotted in May 2021. I probably left some nursery soil around the roots as I would usually do with pines.
Obviously, I live in a wet place although on the Olympic Peninsula we're in the rain shadow of the Olympic range (avg. 18" of rain per year).
I've always tried to position the pines under an overhang for the winter so they can escape some of the rain. Also thought about constructing "rain skirts" for them - clear plastic sheets that would fit around the trunk and over the pot, snapping into place. But I've worried about whether that would create fungus issues. Could easily unsnap them for airing out during dry weather. Anyone have experience with doing that?
Obviously, I live in a wet place although on the Olympic Peninsula we're in the rain shadow of the Olympic range (avg. 18" of rain per year).
I've always tried to position the pines under an overhang for the winter so they can escape some of the rain. Also thought about constructing "rain skirts" for them - clear plastic sheets that would fit around the trunk and over the pot, snapping into place. But I've worried about whether that would create fungus issues. Could easily unsnap them for airing out during dry weather. Anyone have experience with doing that?
Attachments
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
To much rain worry. East coast has plenty rain. Here is near 2X yours and all pines exposed 365 1/4 days a year including Bristlecone, Limber, Lodgepole, Ponderosa, Jeffrey, JBP and Arizona pines. Covering pot prevents any O2 circulation needed for best health and IMO not good idea. Also might help to ditch A and L and go straight pumice. "A" (waste of good money)moisture retentive, may or will break down forcing unneeded repots. L not very retentive of H2O. Pumice is happy medium between these 2
.
Last edited:
sdavis
Mame
Jack pine is not related to P. contorta. It is a different species.....Pinus banksiana
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
- Messages
- 11,427
- Reaction score
- 23,606
- USDA Zone
- 5b
I forgot to add, I use sieves to eliminate fines from my potting mix. No fines, no big chunks. My mix has fairly uniform particle size, meaning good air movement. This is important. Once reported into quality pumice dominant mix, I do not repot for as long as possible. Once every 3 to 5 years for seedlings, once every decade for more developed trees. So plan ahead, plan a decade ahead before repotting. Get the right pot and a quality mix.
Calnicky
Mame
I misspoke about the rain here: it's not the number of inches...it's the number of days with precipitation. So we are ALWAYS wet (well, not in summer). I think I agree with you about the pot circulation which is why I've been holding off on trying the plastic rain skirts. And soil components - definitely something to consider, although our super dry summers (Mediterranean, like the whole west coast) would ague against losing the acadama. Most people I know here use a 1:1:1 ratio of ALP.To much rain worry. East coast has plenty rain. Here is near 2X yours and all pines exposed 365 1/4 days a year including Bristlecone, Limber, Lodgepole, Ponderosa, Jeffrey, JBP and Arizona pines. Covering pot prevents any O2 circulation needed for best health and IMO not good idea. Also might help to ditch A and L and go straight pumice. "A" (waste of good money)moisture retentive, may or will break down forcing unneeded repots. L not very retentive of H2O. Pumice is happy medium between these 2
I think the biggest problem with this pine came from the operator (me!) overwatering this summer.
MaciekA
Shohin
I think you misunderstood my comment, I did not claim these were the same species.
To clarify: p. contorta and p. banksiana are very closely-related species -- being directly part of the exact same species is not the only way that one conifer can be related to another. This is especially true of (all) pines which hybridize liberally where they geographically overlap and already share ancestry, but generally true in conifers as well -- look at the already-known blurred lines of hybridization all over the western US and in places like Klamath mountains (see references below), with blurry hybridization gradients amongst pines, firs, and junipers (see references below -- edit: also, please note I am not claiming hybridization between firs, junipers, and pines, just within their own respective buckets). Jack and lodgepole share a common ancestry and existing biological classifications (contortae subsection) acknowledge this. They encounter each other at their northern extent. They look similar in needle, cone, flower, and habit, and genomic studies prove they're closely related.
Pines can be divided into phylogenetic groupings which show which pine species is related to which other pine species. Jack and Lodgepole are about as related as can be in the pine world without being part of the same species. Pinus banksiana is part of the contortae group or subsection, which includes:
- p. banksiana (jack)
- p. clausa (sand)
- p. contorta (which includes v. contorta, v. latifolia, v. murrayana, v. bolanderi -- lodgepoles and shores)
- p. virginiana (virginia)
Re: the first claim, that they're related, see sources such as:
- the Wikipedia page for pinus, specifically the phylogeny section which is based on genetic analysis and the existing widespread documentation that banksiana fits into contortae (as a group or subsection, not as a species)
- the wikipedia page for p. banksiania itself, where this relation and hybridization aspect is mentioned at the top of the article.
- PNAS volume 118, #20 (2021), "Phylogenomic and ecological analyses reveal the spatiotemporal evolution of global pines" (Wei-Tao Jin et al). This is a genomic study that can show you some nice charts of genetic groupings of closely-related pines.
- other studies that come up when searching for "phylogeny of pinus"
Re: Pine/conifer hybridization and also blurring of lines between neighboring pine / fir / juniper species, see books like:
- Ecology and Biogeography of Pinus (Richardson, 1998)
- Conifer Country (Kauffmann, 2012)
- Conifers of the Pacific Slope (Kauffmann, 2013)
I think it is useful to call out groupings and genetic similarities between closely-related pine species because for bonsai purposes, the behavior and characteristics are close enough that we can take knowledge from a highy-documented species with many practitioners and import that knowledge into a lesser-documented species, and hopefully get something useful out of it. A pine doesn't need to be the same species to have the same behavior as another very closely related pine species. The lines are already pretty blurred within contortae, with folks often discussing shore pine as if it's a different species of pine than lodgepole even though it is biologically considered a subspecies or variant of lodgepole -- yet if you grow both shore and lodgepole, you see their behavior is extremely similar when it comes to management (even if their growth habits are aesthetically distinct). Contortae as a group is a vast kingdom of blurry lines even within the part that is just inside of the confines of "p. contorta". Generally, IMO, we should treat pine like a spectrum more than a perfectly segregated set of baskets. This is true for a few of the other groupings within pinus as well.
Last edited:
MaciekA
Shohin
I think studies driven by genetic/genomic analysis are finally putting these flaws mostly to bed over time. Recent phyolgenomic studies in cupressaceae (check out this example) are especially illuminating in this respect, ripping certain species out of one taxonomic bucket and teleporting them into some surprisingly-distant other taxonomic bucket. What is interesting about the cupressaceae studies is how blurry the story is due to long periods of hybridization in the distant past. That said, there is no question that the groupings we get from studying genomes are sharpening the picture over time... Examples: Nootka cypress never belonged in chamaecyparis and is its own island of weirdness, xanthocyparis never belonged in cupressus and wasn't a chamaecyparis either. But banksiana's membership in subsp. contortae is a lot better-established than those examples and there is ample hybridization at the overlap in geography to confidently say these pines are closely-related even without the benefit of a sequencer machine.
