How to proceed for future dig

[Spdyracer]

Found this guy today which I think is an alder of some kind. I just dug up a buckeye today and think that will be my last dig for this year was wondering what would be the best way to proceed for the future on this. Should I trench around it and wait till fall or should I go even further and do a trunk chop on it also and see what starts to bud out this year. Also would late fall early winter be better to dig and repot or late winter early spring next year.

 

[Alain]

What is the final size of the freaking tree you have in mind?????????

 

[Spdyracer]

Around the 36" range probably

 

[Alain]

36" of trunk's height?
But there is not a single shot on the trunk for at least what? 4 - 5, 6 feet no?

So if it was my plan I'd take a chainsaw, chop the tree at approximately it's final size and see what happen.

After you've got 2 options: or you collect the resulting stump and plant it or you let it in the ground and see if it did survived before taking the shovel and crow bar to extract it.

 

[Spdyracer]

I was thinking more like 12" of trunk and another 2' of canopy. Was thinking about trying a semi cascade with it since that's pretty much how its growing now. the tree isn't as big as it might look in the pictures it's about 4" across at the base maybe 5" at the most. New to yamadori so didn't know if chopping it and leaving it for a year was a good idea or not. Would it be more likely to get new shoots by doing that rather than digging and chopping all at once? The buds on it are just now starting to open on it.

 

[sorce]

You will get more budding if you chop it now.....better new growth with all the roots.....I'm with that..

And if it doesn't respond well....you can leave it!

12" of trunk will be out of proportion to another 2' of branching.

I think 12" of trunk will be good, but a final height should come in around 2-2.5ft

Ish.

Sorce

 

[Spdyracer]

Thanks sorce. Is it a good time to chop it now or should I wait till the leaves come out and harden?

 

[sorce]

Thanks sorce. Is it a good time to chop it now or should I wait till the leaves come out and harden?

I'd do it now.....but for the record....there is at least one tree that can die from this...
I think horn beam.

That other tree (other thread)could Probly get chopped too....see what happens....airlayer after the leaves harden.

Sorce

 

[Spdyracer]

I'd do it now.....but for the record....there is at least one tree that can die from this...
I think horn beam.

That other tree (other thread)could Probly get chopped too....see what happens....airlayer after the leaves harden.

Sorce

Are you talking about the adhd tree I found? Leaning toward leaving it but still havnt ruled it out 100 percent. Would like to id by the leaves before my final decision.

 

[rockm]

I was thinking more like 12" of trunk and another 2' of canopy. Was thinking about trying a semi cascade with it since that's pretty much how its growing now. the tree isn't as big as it might look in the pictures it's about 4" across at the base maybe 5" at the most. New to yamadori so didn't know if chopping it and leaving it for a year was a good idea or not. Would it be more likely to get new shoots by doing that rather than digging and chopping all at once? The buds on it are just now starting to open on it.

You could wind up killing it if you chop it and leave it in the woods. Carolina hornbeam do that if you behead them and leave them .

If you're going to collect it and it's a deciduous species, I'd do it all at once.

 

[Alain]

Was thinking about trying a semi cascade with it since that's pretty much how its growing now. the tree isn't as big as it might look in the pictures it's about 4" across at the base maybe 5" at the most. New to yamadori so didn't know if chopping it and leaving it for a year was a good idea or not. Would it be more likely to get new shoots by doing that rather than digging and chopping all at once? The buds on it are just now starting to open on it.

Well before thinking semi-cascade and whatnot style wait to see if there are some branches and leaves one day...

Personally I would never try to collect such a tree.

You said that it's not that big. Ok, let's work with that. In any case it means that when you'll collect it, if it survive the process and bud back you will end up with a rather large close to perfect cylinder of nothing.
Knowing that I was wrong and that if you want to do the classical 'chop and let grow' technique to get some trunk with a taper you have to make the initial chop at 1/3rd of the final height (let's say the red line) it means that all the more or less interesting features (scar, start of a 2nd branch) won't be there anymore.
If by any luck the tree survive and starts to bud you will have new very small diameter shoots that you will need to let grow for years before they reach the minimum thickness for your second chop...
So much work and time for may be no result whatsoever...
At least it will give you time to save money for the monster pot you'll need if one day the tree ends-up looking like a bonsai.

If you do that you at least chop it and let it in the ground with all its roots, that might help it to survive and bud (although if it's an hornbeam it seems that it doesn't work like that. I don't know. I know nothing about hornbeam.)

My question: as you can obviously collect in the area why don't you take the multi-trunks behind? (blue circle) sounds much more promising to me.

 

[rockm]

FWIW, this trunk is more interesting than the clump behind it. This trunk not all that large, and yes, it will take time to grow out a leader, but it has some muscle and some movement that makes it worthwhile.

It all really boils down to the tree's nebari at the soil level. It's really not visible here. If there are some decent surface roots, it would be a great trunk. If there aren't, it's probably not worth the trouble, as that is what digging trees is about. You're after stuff that already has developed things like killer nebari and rough old bark and movement in thick trunks. I would definitely NOT chop it low, but leave at least two feet of trunk on it to start out.

I agree with Alain that making plans for it now are mostly futile. You have to get it out of the ground and living before you make any plans for it.

I also agree with Alain that you will wind up buying a very large pot and a lot of bonsai soil to fill it over the years. Big trees are not cheap and come with a lot of stuff smaller trees don't have--like lifting this once it's containerized. You will have to move it around to give it winter protection I assume, since it's not likely to be winter hardy without some root protection. I'd estimate the pot/soil/tree when this is "finished" will weigh in at over 100 lbs. That might not seem like much, but it dead weight. This becomes a bigger and bigger issue as you get older.

I have trees about this size and they get heavier every year. Break a big pot because your hands slipped off while you were moving it and you're out $$. Smipa disc or drop that pot on your toes and, well, hopefully your insurance doesn't cheap out on you.

 

[Spdyracer]

Well before thinking semi-cascade and whatnot style wait to see if there are some branches and leaves one day...

Personally I would never try to collect such a tree.

You said that it's not that big. Ok, let's work with that. In any case it means that when you'll collect it, if it survive the process and bud back you will end up with a rather large close to perfect cylinder of nothing.
Knowing that I was wrong and that if you want to do the classical 'chop and let grow' technique to get some trunk with a taper you have to make the initial chop at 1/3rd of the final height (let's say the red line) it means that all the more or less interesting features (scar, start of a 2nd branch) won't be there anymore.
If by any luck the tree survive and starts to bud you will have new very small diameter shoots that you will need to let grow for years before they reach the minimum thickness for your second chop...
So much work and time for may be no result whatsoever...
At least it will give you time to save money for the monster pot you'll need if one day the tree ends-up looking like a bonsai.

If you do that you at least chop it and let it in the ground with all its roots, that might help it to survive and bud (although if it's an hornbeam it seems that it doesn't work like that. I don't know. I know nothing about hornbeam.)

My question: as you can obviously collect in the area why don't you take the multi-trunks behind? (blue circle) sounds much more promising to me.
View attachment 101059

As you stated about the time involved in a larger tree compared to the clump in the back, right now I'm searching around for some bigger stuff with that in mind. Would like to have some bigger stuff started knowing it's going to take a lot longer compared to some smaller stuff. Not ruling out things like the clump in the back just trying to get a few bigger ones going, for time purposes and because I like the look of older larger trees than smaller thin ones. Next year I'll probably get an earlier start and dig some smaller stuff. I have my eye on 2-3 larger trees besides the one buckeye I just dug out in my woods. As far as possibility of a lot of time for possible not much or no results isn't that all part of this?

 

[jomawa]

was wondering what would be the best way to proceed

Just for reference, I'm a newbie looking at "fat" tree trunks and wondering posibles.

I understand perfectly why @Alain says "I would never try to collect such a tree", and based on that realization I truly question my sanity looking at certain trunks. If you don't understand why, I suggest you get in your head the "required annual process/progression" and years (decades?) required of turning a deciduous into a bonsai, because it is absolutely opposite the evergreens, which in many cases can be yamadori'd and trimmed into a nearly finished, (or at least be able to have something show worthy to family and friends, who are less critical of certain bnutters and true bonsaists).

Last year I brought home 1/8th inch minus "trees" because of the tight internodes. That was a mistake because of the length of time required to achieve anything resembling a "bonsai". This year I've tended to wander to the opposite extreme of the pendulum and am looking at "fat" trunks, many like yours without any branch approx. half the dia. of the trunk and especially none on the trunk that will be part of the bonsai, ("a mistake because of... time???").

All that said, I'm looking at your first picture and drawing an imaginary dotted line for an air layer spot below the wound/hollow/scar that is below the crook of the slingshot. But the more I look at it I wonder what the heck was I thinking.

On the pendulum of too small/too long/too many details to overcome and the other extreme of too big/too long/too many details to overcome there is a sane/reasonable/appropriate spot that certain pre/prospective bonsai fall into. These are the trees that tend to be searched out and brought home to be worked/developed/even appreciated over the following years.

If you have a good understanding of that mid category, please p.m. me those specific details because I'm still simply learning by the seat of my pants and the mistakes I make, swinging from one side of the pendulum to the other. If you already understood what I tried to get across in this post, please forgive me, and disregard all I said.

 

[Alain]

FWIW, this trunk is more interesting than the clump behind it. This trunk not all that large, and yes, it will take time to grow out a leader, but it has some muscle and some movement that makes it worthwhile.

It all really boils down to the tree's nebari at the soil level. It's really not visible here. If there are some decent surface roots, it would be a great trunk. If there aren't, it's probably not worth the trouble, as that is what digging trees is about. You're after stuff that already has developed things like killer nebari and rough old bark and movement in thick trunks. I would definitely NOT chop it low, but leave at least two feet of trunk on it to start out.

I agree with Alain that making plans for it now are mostly futile. You have to get it out of the ground and living before you make any plans for it.

I also agree with Alain that you will wind up buying a very large pot and a lot of bonsai soil to fill it over the years. Big trees are not cheap and come with a lot of stuff smaller trees don't have--like lifting this once it's containerized. You will have to move it around to give it winter protection I assume, since it's not likely to be winter hardy without some root protection. I'd estimate the pot/soil/tree when this is "finished" will weigh in at over 100 lbs. That might not seem like much, but it dead weight. This becomes a bigger and bigger issue as you get older.

I have trees about this size and they get heavier every year. Break a big pot because your hands slipped off while you were moving it and you're out $$. Smipa disc or drop that pot on your toes and, well, hopefully your insurance doesn't cheap out on you.

I don't know, I like the little cluster behind. It has already a funny planting if you picture it on a sloppy outcrop of rocks
However I agree that the trunk of the big one has a lot of strength an a nice movement.
Also I agree with the nebari part: it's better be good to worth all the troubles!

 

[Spdyracer]

FWIW, this trunk is more interesting than the clump behind it. This trunk not all that large, and yes, it will take time to grow out a leader, but it has some muscle and some movement that makes it worthwhile.

It all really boils down to the tree's nebari at the soil level. It's really not visible here. If there are some decent surface roots, it would be a great trunk. If there aren't, it's probably not worth the trouble, as that is what digging trees is about. You're after stuff that already has developed things like killer nebari and rough old bark and movement in thick trunks. I would definitely NOT chop it low, but leave at least two feet of trunk on it to start out.

I agree with Alain that making plans for it now are mostly futile. You have to get it out of the ground and living before you make any plans for it.

I also agree with Alain that you will wind up buying a very large pot and a lot of bonsai soil to fill it over the years. Big trees are not cheap and come with a lot of stuff smaller trees don't have--like lifting this once it's containerized. You will have to move it around to give it winter protection I assume, since it's not likely to be winter hardy without some root protection. I'd estimate the pot/soil/tree when this is "finished" will weigh in at over 100 lbs. That might not seem like much, but it dead weight. This becomes a bigger and bigger issue as you get older.

I have trees about this size and they get heavier every year. Break a big pot because your hands slipped off while you were moving it and you're out $$. Smipa disc or drop that pot on your toes and, well, hopefully your insurance doesn't cheap out on you.

Rockm thanks for the advice and glad you see some potential in it also. I have 10 acres of woods on my property if I kill a tree or two trying some things I'm not going to sweat it. On the other hand I would like others advice on proceeding with stuff like this to give me the best chance to keep them living.

After getting the buckeye yesterday and what it took as far as pulling it out of the woods cleaning it up and getting it potted was an eye opener on just how hard bigger stuff can be. Made me decide pretty quick with bigger stuff that it has to have pretty good potential before I want to put the effort in. That's also why I wanted to find out if I can chop and leave it before I commit to it even more time and effort into it.
Looking at this buckeye also.

 

[rockm]

Rockm thanks for the advice and glad you see some potential in it also. I have 10 acres of woods on my property if I kill a tree or two trying some things I'm not going to sweat it. On the other hand I would like others advice on proceeding with stuff like this to give me the best chance to keep them living.

After getting the buckeye yesterday and what it took as far as pulling it out of the woods cleaning it up and getting it potted was an eye opener on just how hard bigger stuff can be. Made me decide pretty quick with bigger stuff that it has to have pretty good potential before I want to put the effort in. That's also why I wanted to find out if I can chop and leave it before I commit to it even more time and effort into it.
Looking at this buckeye also.

View attachment 101065

I wouldn't collect buckeye, or hickory or pecan for bonsai, even though all of those species are spectacular trees in the wild.

Species with compound leaves generally don't make good bonsai because the "leaves" don't act like leaves, since the smaller leaves are actually part of a larger leaf. that makes for a sometimes weird looking tree. Wisteria is the poster plant for ungainly ugly bonsai outside of its leafless flowering period. The leaf thing can be overcome to a certain extent with a BIG bonsai, still the branching needed to visually support those big awkward leaves also has to be big, which gets at another point--they don't ramify very well either.

As for this one, I wouldn't collect it even if it weren't a buckeye. That nebari is extremely coarse and the trunk leaves it at a weird angle. The coarse nebari is a big problem, there are huge gaps between two main roots with nothing in between. In looking for big trees, you're looking for some details, a spreading, even natural looking nebari is one of those details. Big shouldn't mean lack of grace.

 

[Spdyracer]

Just for reference, I'm a newbie looking at "fat" tree trunks and wondering posibles.

I understand perfectly why @Alain says "I would never try to collect such a tree", and based on that realization I truly question my sanity looking at certain trunks. If you don't understand why, I suggest you get in your head the "required annual process/progression" and years (decades?) required of turning a deciduous into a bonsai, because it is absolutely opposite the evergreens, which in many cases can be yamadori'd and trimmed into a nearly finished, (or at least be able to have something show worthy to family and friends, who are less critical of certain bnutters and true bonsaists).

Last year I brought home 1/8th inch minus "trees" because of the tight internodes. That was a mistake because of the length of time required to achieve anything resembling a "bonsai". This year I've tended to wander to the opposite extreme of the pendulum and am looking at "fat" trunks, many like yours without any branch approx. half the dia. of the trunk and especially none on the trunk that will be part of the bonsai, ("a mistake because of... time???").

All that said, I'm looking at your first picture and drawing an imaginary dotted line for an air layer spot below the wound/hollow/scar that is below the crook of the slingshot. But the more I look at it I wonder what the heck was I thinking.

On the pendulum of too small/too long/too many details to overcome and the other extreme of too big/too long/too many details to overcome there is a sane/reasonable/appropriate spot that certain pre/prospective bonsai fall into. These are the trees that tend to be searched out and brought home to be worked/developed/even appreciated over the following years.

If you have a good understanding of that mid category, please p.m. me those specific details because I'm still simply learning by the seat of my pants and the mistakes I make, swinging from one side of the pendulum to the other. If you already understood what I tried to get across in this post, please forgive me, and disregard all I said.

Not at all, thanks for the advice. Especially the deciduous part compared to an evergreen. Sadly not really any evergreens in my woods but my dad has an old grown up shrub that I told him I'll take off his hands. Being new to this I have a lot to learn and the more advice I get gives me more to think about and help make decisions down the road. All suggestions welcomed.

 

[Spdyracer]

I wouldn't collect buckeye, or hickory or pecan for bonsai, even though all of those species are spectacular trees in the wild.

Species with compound leaves generally don't make good bonsai because the "leaves" don't act like leaves, since the smaller leaves are actually part of a larger leaf. that makes for a sometimes weird looking tree. Wisteria is the poster plant for ungainly ugly bonsai outside of its leafless flowering period. The leaf thing can be overcome to a certain extent with a BIG bonsai, still the branching needed to visually support those big awkward leaves also has to be big, which gets at another point--they don't ramify very well either.

Well I already have the one potted and like you said being a bigger tree might be able to overcome a few things like bigger leaves. It is not my first pick of tree but trying to work with what I can dig on my property. Have a lot of buckeye, ash, alder and beech. None are the greatest but figure I'll at least give a few a shot. I told my wife last night that maybe having a buckeye bonsai may help me come to grips on living in Ohio now. After living in Kentucky for 40 years moving to my wife's home state was a bit of a bitter pill to swallow for me ha.

 

[M. Frary]

If you have ash,alder and beech,hornbeams should be around.