How to efficiently ID elm trees

[Dorky_gearhead]

This might belong in the general forum, but... my neighbor has several elm Trees that the landlord wants removed.

How would a novice ID an elm tree without previous species knowledge? As of right now I would be googling "how to id elm trees" and proceed to sift through many many pictures in a feeble attempt to get an exact ID. I understand that its going to be a combination of the bark and the leaves, but beyond that I'm at a loss.

I guess at some point I should make a flow chart for ease. That should help me remember lol

 

[Alain]

Well actually there are no other way really.
Even here if somebody knows the answer it would most certainly be something like: count the number of teeth on the leaves if it's between x and x it's an American elm.

so for the identification you have to find yourself the document called 'keys' for the elms.
There you don't look at the pictures, you look at the description of the keys, they will be like that:' all elms have those characteristic but these and these have this kind of number of teeth (for example) while those and those have something else.' Then you look at the illustration

And then you look at your trees and you do a 1st sorting based on the 1st key.
Go back to the book for the 2nd key, etc

 

[Alain]

Or you take good pictures of all the different leaves and trunks you could find in the trees of your neigbhor, and you post them in the elm forum with a title like: "somebody could help me to sort out my different varieties of foemina?"

 

[rockm]

A good starting point might be to ask the landowner who wants them removed. They might know what kind they are if they planted them.

If they're "volunteer" or native, things get a bit more complicated. One way might be to ask your county extension agent. Here in Virginina counties have arborists that can be called to take stock of trees on property.

If that's too drawn out, you can thumb through field guides that have actual pictures of trees. Some use line drawings, which can be difficult to use. Pay attention to elms that are listed as native to your area. Some guides have shaded maps of home ranges for trees.

Also consider that these might not be elms. Don't make a conclusion first and then try to prove it. Hackberry can look a lot like elm right down to the toothed leaves and leaf shape.

Post pictures here too.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Elms all look alike. Difficult for even trained taxonomy guys to tell apart. Botanical keys are the only reliable method. Winter twig botanical keys are surprisingly good. Yes, you have to count bud scales & vascular bundle scars, but if you really want to know its the way to know. I know from experience that posting a photo and asking for an id from the internet you will get as many or more bad IDs and if anyone does guess right, you won't have the ability to spot the good guess.

Make a list of possible native species, add the possible invasives and or ornamental indroduced species. Then note the traits unique to each. It may be a puzzle you won't solve for a while. I have a few botanical puzzles growing around the house, might spend a few hours on the puzzle every couple months, but eventually it will be solved. Mostly orchid species identities, but I have a couple tree puzzles, and an elm identity question myself.

 

[rockm]

Elms don't all look alike really. Some are extremely similar. Some aren't. Splitting hairs is fun for some. The answer is usually what the "Usual suspects" are in your area.

 

[Zach Smith]

I agree with Mark. Once you've studied and worked with elms long enough you get very good at distinguishing among them, and they vary widely in appearance. You always start with the leaves on a tree growing freely in the wild (not necessarily a bonsai, where leaf reduction can alter the leaves' appearance). Get a good field guide such as the Audubon Society's and go from there. Other good indicators are bark, if the tree is old enough to have bark, and leaf buds. For mature specimens, their shape can also give you a good indicator - for example the classic American elm "vase shape" and very large size. Other species such as winged elm and cedar elm don't grow as tall, nor do Chinese elms in the landscape. The elm cousin hackberry has three distinctive veins running from the base of the leaf, pale green leaf color and warty mature bark. Chinese elm is called "lacebark elm" because the bark exfoliates. And so on.

 

[Cypress187]

Just dig them up and make nice bonsai with them "Elm" is close enough

 

[armetisius]

This might help some. It is not all inclusive but it is a start.
http://uptreeid.com/Species/elms.htm
However, this site says that flowers and fruit are necessary
for id.
http://ucjeps.berkeley.edu/eflora/eflora_display.php?tid=10753
And this may be of help as well.
https://www.uwsp.edu/cnr-ap/leaf/Documents/LEAFWinterTreeIDKey.pdf
BUT it would help if you first learned to use the net;
Google is a blessing.
https://www.google.com/#q=ulmus+identification+key
But don't you think you are getting ahead of yourself? Get the
tree; get it to live; then worry about its name.

 

[jcrossett]

Okay how about this question.

Are there trees / weeds that have leaves similar to elms.

Not trying to steal thread. Just wondering.

Behind my work there is a huge elm looking "bush " not tree. But bush has about 20-30 whips coming from one spot in the ground.

Also asking cause I have 3 small elm looking seedlings that popped up in my garden this week.

 

[Zach Smith]

Members of the birch family, which includes hornbeams.

 

[BrianBay9]

Here's a place to start. See page 6 for common elms in central California.

http://www.sactree.com/assets/files/guides/elm-guide.pdf

 

[armetisius]

Okay how about this question. Are there trees / weeds that have leaves similar to elms. . . .

Flowering almond can look very similar and is a shrub. They are also called Chinese Rose Tree.
Kerria is another that can look close to an elm. However, neither of these can be mistaken for
an Elm if you observe the growth habit of either.

 

[M. Frary]

#1. If you dig at the base of the tree and find lateral roots heading out at at least 3 different directions, it's likely NOT a Siberian elm; this is a GOOD thing. Personally, I have given up on SElms., they will almost always die within the first year and I have read that a lot of people get them to grow for a number of years before they die off; that would annoy me even more. #2. IMHO, as long as it's NOT a Siberian elm, you're good to go and depending on your location the options as to what it could be are generally limited by native species for that given area.

(Siberian Elm that are a good size for jamadori (here anyway) have one long tap root with few if any lateral roots. I've often thought of ground layering a SE for a season then dig it up, but the likelihood that it would die keeps me from wasting my energy... besides, with White Elms available to me, I don't see the point in doing so. (Now that I've said that, someone is bound to write a post stating the opposite.)

Cut the tap root off at the base. They don't need it. Dig that up and grow it also.
I have a couple large ones I've dug up one 5 years ago the other 2 years ago. There are threads here on them. You don't only need a couple feeder roots and they grow.
I only collect in the spring and haven't one die on me yet. Nor even lose a branch. Root work every year and hard cutting back are the key to these trees I believe.
Check out how many roots I kept when I dug this monstrosity out. This is it today. I pulled it this spring and the roots grew out all around the cut. Just like a giant cutting.
After collection I put the stumps in DE in a colander. Right out in full sun and they grow like crazy. As soon as I see green popping out I hit them with fertilizer.
Maybe you're just doing something different than what you should be. I actually like these trees as much as American elm.

 

[Dorky_gearhead]

Well I finally git around to get some pictures. Lets see how it goes.

I appreciate any words of wisdome!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I agree with Mark. Once you've studied and worked with elms long enough you get very good at distinguishing among them, and they vary widely in appearance. You always start with the leaves on a tree growing freely in the wild (not necessarily a bonsai, where leaf reduction can alter the leaves' appearance). Get a good field guide such as the Audubon Society's and go from there. Other good indicators are bark, if the tree is old enough to have bark, and leaf buds. For mature specimens, their shape can also give you a good indicator - for example the classic American elm "vase shape" and very large size. Other species such as winged elm and cedar elm don't grow as tall, nor do Chinese elms in the landscape. The elm cousin hackberry has three distinctive veins running from the base of the leaf, pale green leaf color and warty mature bark. Chinese elm is called "lacebark elm" because the bark exfoliates. And so on.

Quite true - mature trees in the field are not that difficult to tell apart. The Audubon guide is quite good. But young seedlings are another matter. On the property I collect on, there are mature Ulmus americana, U. thomasii, U. pumila, & U. minor - how do you tell which seedling is which when all 4 species are within 1/8th mile, well within seed dispersal range? That is where the shape of the leaf bud and leaf scars help. Fortunately, horticultural care for the 4 species on my property is the same, regardless. I figure if a seedling I am trying to turn into bonsai lives long enough to develop bark, and or produce seed, I'll be able to sort it out eventually.

On the same property have hackberry Carpinus caroliniana and Ostyra virginiana, this thread has given me the clue to separate the hackberry seedlings from the elm seedlings. The hornbeams, Carpinus & Ostrya, while the leaf is similar to elm, the base of the leaf blade is symmetrical where it joins the petiole, where most elms are asymmetrical where the leaf blade joins the leaf stem. Also leaves of both hornbeams have a different texture than the elm leaves, hard to describe, but they are smoother, slightly more glossy. At least on my property, the Ostrya tend to be in slightly dryer locations, edge of woods on upper half of hills, the Carpinus tend to be closer to water, in valleys (but not areas where it floods).