How to avoid "pancake" nebari

[Bonsai Tree]

Hello. I've been growing "pre" bonsai trees for a few years now and have had a question on my mind which I just can't seem to find an answer for.

If you're continually repotting and pruning the roots of the tree to make a flat base, won't this inevitably form a "pancake" root base? I assume that all of the roots will eventually fuse together and for that pancake nebari which I don't find appealing.

How can this be avoided if it is an issue? I have several trees that I've been growing in pond baskets, and when it's time to repot and prune those roots, I'm rethinking if I should trim the roots back to thwir flat base like I was planning. One of my trees is an air-layered crabapple, which already has nice radial roots and a flat base.

Can anyone help me understand this?

 

[River's Edge]

Hello. I've been growing "pre" bonsai trees for a few years now and have had a question on my mind which I just can't seem to find an answer for.

If you're continually repotting and pruning the roots of the tree to make a flat base, won't this inevitably form a "pancake" root base? I assume that all of the roots will eventually fuse together and for that pancake nebari which I don't find appealing.

How can this be avoided if it is an issue? I have several trees that I've been growing in pond baskets, and when it's time to repot and prune those roots, I'm rethinking if I should trim the roots back to thwir flat base like I was planning. One of my trees is an air-layered crabapple, which already has nice radial roots and a flat base.

Can anyone help me understand this?

This is not an issue, if you do not deliberately take all the steps necessary to create a " pancake" style base ir will definitely not likely occur on its own. Taking regular steps to create a flatter base or rootball is part of regular bonsai development. After all we wish to house them in Bonsai pots.
I am assuming that you will assess your progress and adapt your efforts when reaching the stage you are happy with, as opposed to continuing techniques no longer required.
I must confess it seems like a silly question to me!

 

[Bonsai Tree]

I am assuming that you will assess your progress and adapt your efforts when reaching the stage you are happy with, as opposed to continuing techniques no longer required.
I must confess it seems like a silly question to me!

And what changes would be made? I'm sorry but I feel like my question wasn't entirely answered because I don't understand if it's inevitable over timw or what changes would be made to prevemt it. Is the pancake inevitable, after all the tree will be in a shallow pot, won't the roots fuse together? I'm sorry if it strikes you as silly, but I'm a firm believer that there aren't stupid questions.

 

[Srt8madness]

It is not inevitable, a "pancake" nebari takes a lot of effort. Regular root pruning and spreading does not a pancake nebari make.

Easiest way would be to look at how a pancake nebari is formed, and don't do that. Also no, the roots will not all just automatically fuse together. Once a tree is in a state of stasis or restricted growth (i.e. bonsai pot), root thickness growth will drastically decrease.

 

[SeanS]

It takes a lot of effort to create pancake nebari. Some of us strive to achieve it. It doesn’t just happen naturally

Some of the effort involved:

• Often starting with an air layer or layering a tree off of its original roots to basically start the nebari from scratch
• Meticulously combing and organising the roots each repot
• Screwing trees to wooden boards
• Organising and directing roots with nails and screwed (in the wooden board above)
• Countless root grafts to fill every single area of the root ball with roots

Don’t do all of the above steps and you should be ok

On that note, I’ll be repotting this tree tomorrow, this is what it looked like 2 springs ago. I’m hoping to see a little more pancake this time around

 

[River's Edge]

And what changes would be made?

if you do not deliberately take all the steps necessary to create a " pancake" style base ir will definitely not likely occur on its own

I am assuming that you will assess your progress and adapt your efforts when reaching the stage you are happy with

as opposed to continuing techniques no longer required

So stop when you get to the point you desire and do not continue to the " Pancake" stage if you do not wish to go there!

 

[SeanS]

@Bonsai Tree your question reminds me of people that go to the gym and say “I don’t want to get too big”.
I was very heavily into bodybuilding for many years before I found bonsai, and the “I don’t want to get too big” remark used to make me laugh.
I agree with @River's Edge, it’s a silly question. If pancake nebaris just happened over night unexpectedly we’d see plenty of them outside of Japan.

(I feel I can make these remarks based on my knowledge of what it takes to actually “get too big”, and more recently what it takes to even get a tiny sniff of pancake nebari)

 

[rockm]

Hello. I've been growing "pre" bonsai trees for a few years now and have had a question on my mind which I just can't seem to find an answer for.

If you're continually repotting and pruning the roots of the tree to make a flat base, won't this inevitably form a "pancake" root base? I assume that all of the roots will eventually fuse together and for that pancake nebari which I don't find appealing.

How can this be avoided if it is an issue? I have several trees that I've been growing in pond baskets, and when it's time to repot and prune those roots, I'm rethinking if I should trim the roots back to thwir flat base like I was planning. One of my trees is an air-layered crabapple, which already has nice radial roots and a flat base.

Can anyone help me understand this?

Sorry, but this is kind of humorous if you've been doing bonsai for long. Getting a "pancake" fused nebari on a maple is a Holy Grail for advanced bonsai ists. It is hardly easy to do. It takes a lot of work, over decades and decades, even with trident maples. More for Japanese Maples. It's not simply cutting flat root masses and hoping the roots fuse (which mostly doesn't happen, unless you force them to by wounding surface roots and binding them together to insure they callus over each other.

Flat root lateral masses are sought out because they work best in containers. Deep root masses are inefficient and can eventually kill off lateral roots as they draw most of the tree's energy. Root that grow upwards have no future, so lateral root masses provide the best foundation for a bonsai pot.

Believe me, there is absolutely no danger of you getting a root mass like you envision

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Ok, I suppose the questipn is answered. Thank you to the people that respectfully answered my question.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Ok, I suppose the questipn is answered. Thank you to the people that respectfully answered my question.

I think people are having a little fun since most people ask how TO make flat nebari.

 

[19Mateo83]

@Bonsai Tree your question reminds me of people that go to the gym and say “I don’t want to get too big”.
I was very heavily into bodybuilding for many years before I found bonsai, and the “I don’t want to get too big” remark used to make me laugh.
I agree with @River's Edge, it’s a silly question. If pancake nebaris just happened over night unexpectedly we’d see plenty of them outside of Japan.

(I feel I can make these remarks based on my knowledge of what it takes to actually “get too big”, and more recently what it takes to even get a tiny sniff of pancake nebari)

View attachment 559762

Love the ethos “post physique”

 

[Bonsai Tree]

I think people are having a little fun since most people ask how TO make flat nebari.

Well, part of my question was whether it's inevitable, meaning if using bonsai techniques over a long time frame will inevitably result in this nebari product. I don't expect this to happen to any of my trees in the next 20 years nor do I anticipate living for 100 more years to see what happens with my trees, but part of my question (though not explicitly stated) was whether or not it's inevitable. I think calling my question silly because pancake nebaris don't occur overnight unexpectedly is a mischarachterization of the question I'm asking.

 

[MHBonsai]

Well, part of my question was whether it's inevitable, meaning if using bonsai techniques over a long time frame will inevitably result in this nebari product. I don't expect this to happen to any of my trees in the next 20 years nor do I anticipate living for 100 more years to see what happens with my trees, but part of my question (though not explicitly stated) was whether or not it's inevitable. I think calling my question silly because pancake nebaris don't occur overnight unexpectedly is a mischarachterization of the question I'm asking.

Theoretically speaking… If you had a tree developing over many many years, and you wish to only have say a fluted root base or individual roots, it would be easy enough to just cut pie shaped channels into a base that was becoming too much of a flat plate. I think that would solve your challenge. Interesting question.

 

[rockm]

Well, part of my question was whether it's inevitable, meaning if using bonsai techniques over a long time frame will inevitably result in this nebari product. I don't expect this to happen to any of my trees in the next 20 years nor do I anticipate living for 100 more years to see what happens with my trees, but part of my question (though not explicitly stated) was whether or not it's inevitable. I think calling my question silly because pancake nebaris don't occur overnight unexpectedly is a mischarachterization of the question I'm asking.

I didn't mean any offense, honest. I was just pointing out that what you're asking about doesn't occur mostly unless you actively try to do it. People spend decades trying to get what you asked about. Such formation is not inevitable. Bonsai cultivation allows, and sometimes demands, that a tree's roots are replaced, repositioned, regrown, hard pruned ect. All of those, along with a natural propensity of many species NOT to fuse their roots, makes pancaked root masses mostly not a thing.

Case in point, the link below is to an article about the Yamaki pine at the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum in Washington D.C. It, and a dozen other trees, were given to the U.S. in 1976 by the Japanese government as a commemoration of the bi-centennial.

The Yamaki pine has been in continuous bonsai cultivation for almost 500 years now, being passed down through the Yamaki family in Japan until it was gifted to the U.S. (along the way it survived the Hiroshima bombing in a nursery about two miles from the target zone--but that's another story.)

If you look through the article, you will note (particularly in the second photo) there are no slab-like roots. There are a few overlapping roots that have joined, but no solid impenetrable slab of wood--the way bonsai works is that the root mass now present on the tree IS NOT the same one that was present on it 500 years ago. Roots are refreshed with each repotting (and in the case of this tree that's about every five years or so). That root removal (pruning) and regrowth is the foundation of bonsai cultivation, since old thick roots tend to have not many feeder roots and lose their ability to operate efficiently, while new or newish roots have much higher concentrations of more efficient feeder roots.

Repotting the World-Famous Yamaki Pine — National Bonsai Foundation

National Bonsai & Penjing Museum and U.S. National Arboretum staff have repotted the Yamaki pine , one of the world’s most eminent and symbolically powerful bonsai. Almost 400 years old, the Japanese white pine has survived generations of travel and travesty, most famously the 1945 bombi

www.bonsai-nbf.org

So, bottom line, pancake root formations are a specialty item for bonsai. They actually take skill and purpose to produce effectively. They are the mark of an expert who knows how they work--the grower has forced them to form, but has also done that while keeping the root mass working efficiently.

 

[Michael P]

A sincere question asked in the pursuit of knowledge is never silly.

 

[circledisk]

Love the ethos “post physique”

totally agree...however my "bodybuilding" physique is not refined enough to warrant a post like that

 

[Michigan Tree Murderer]

Love the ethos “post physique”

Note to self. Don't argue with @SeanS

 

[Pigskin Pete]

Could you post an example of the kind of pancake nebari you are trying to avoid?

I have never seen roots fuse in a pancake manner.

 

[vp999]

U know "pancake nebari" add thousands to a tree right ? lol

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Check out this starter link of images from Mr Ebihara’s shop.

Pancake nebari

Cheers
DSD sends