How big is too big for a BC?

[Trenthany]

I found a tree with massive flair. Has to be 14” at soil but tapers quickly. Very straight. Couldn’t check roots today but wanted input because of size. Just wondered if it was too fat to reduce to useable levels for bonsai.

 

[leatherback]

It would be for me, but..

How do these grow? If the flare extends like that untilll it hits the mud the nebari could easily be twice as wide.

 

[Trenthany]

I’d be dragging out a massive rootball for sure. 1.5 times times the diameter out is what I’ve always heard about where to cut. 21+21+14 is 5.5 feet. But I BV wasn’t thinking practicalities like moving it, I was thinking of if it would scale small enough to look good.

 

[sorce]

Too fat?

Is there a donut that's too good?

Sorce

 

[Shibui]

There are massive bonsai. Recently saw pictures of someone with a forklift to move pots and lift trees for repotting.
You should consider logistics before taking on large trees.
What size pot will it need? Can you get one? Cost?
How will you manage the tree? Ladder for pruning? Crane/forklift for repot? Lots of friends with big muscles?
Can such a pot be turned to get sun on all sides?
Do you plant to take it to a bonsai show?

Many collectors' eyes are far bigger than their pots or capabilities. Collected trees seem to expand as you dig so always need a much larger pot than planned and weigh about twice as much as anticipated.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Many collectors' eyes are far bigger than their pots or capabilities. Collected trees seem to expand as you dig so always need a much larger pot than planned and weigh about twice as much as anticipated.

I left a big California juniper in SoCal - gifted to a bonsai friend of mine. I felt it was simply too big to move. I agree with your comments. Once you get to trees that are too large to move by yourself there are all kinds of logistical issues. It was difficult to even rotate. Something as basic as repotting becomes a major exercise - and takes more bonsai soil than you might imagine. As soon as you start having to buy 24" or larger deep bonsai pots you will find yourself in a very rarified category of champagne wishes and caviar dreams Even Chinese pots that size will cost several hundred $$$.

That said... if you are the kind of guy with a truck with a lift gate, and you have moving dollies and an engine crane in your garage... collect away!

 

[Dav4]

Everything is relative. Check out Guy Guidry's "Twister"...



I saw this tree at the Ist National Bonsai Exhibition in 2008... one of the most impressive bonsai I've ever seen. It needs a fork lift to be moved, if I recall. There was a thread here about Twister a few years ago... https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/guy-guidrys-twister-how.35649/

 

[Daniel son STL]

Here is a bc that was at a friends house during a little repotting get together this last spring



See the long boards on the wall next to it??

Dig whatever you can carry back to your vehicle. Just make sure you have a huge plastic bin or wooden box to place it in immediately. Then once you have it in recovery, think about home much of a pain in the ass it was to get it home and potted. Is it worth it to keep long run??? If so then great, you’ve got a huge bc to play with. If you realize it’s not worth your efforts then sell it! A bc that big with that kind of flare WILL sell, and go for a decent chunk of change. It’s not too big for somebody, so why not make some cash off your super nice find???

 

[Trenthany]

There are massive bonsai. Recently saw pictures of someone with a forklift to move pots and lift trees for repotting.
You should consider logistics before taking on large trees.
What size pot will it need? Can you get one? Cost?
How will you manage the tree? Ladder for pruning? Crane/forklift for repot? Lots of friends with big muscles?
Can such a pot be turned to get sun on all sides?
Do you plant to take it to a bonsai show?

Many collectors' eyes are far bigger than their pots or capabilities. Collected trees seem to expand as you dig so always need a much larger pot than planned and weigh about twice as much as anticipated.

Very true! I have pots, not bonsai pots but pots to grow it in and moving definitely would be an issue. Ladder for top trimming if it gets too big lol. Worst case as a cypress I can plant it in sand and it will stay slowed so I can keep up as a Niwaki or let it grow out. If I give up lol

 

[Trenthany]

I left a big California juniper in SoCal - gifted to a bonsai friend of mine. I felt it was simply too big to move. I agree with your comments. Once you get to trees that are too large to move by yourself there are all kinds of logistical issues. It was difficult to even rotate. Something as basic as repotting becomes a major exercise - and takes more bonsai soil than you might imagine. As soon as you start having to buy 24" or larger deep bonsai pots you will find yourself in a very rarified category of champagne wishes and caviar dreams Even Chinese pots that size will cost several hundred $$$.

That said... if you are the kind of guy with a truck with a lift gate, and you have moving dollies and an engine crane in your garage... collect away!

I plan on a permanent lazy Susan under it if I do get it and perhaps I’ll devise a lift to do repotting. It will definitely be a burden but it’s only about 15’from where I can park a trailer. So getting it home won’t be the issue.

 

[Trenthany]

If I go for it how big of a rootball should I plan on? Andhow far should I chop? I’m thinking around 4’-5’ for chop and probably 3’-4’ diameter rootball as a start of my plan.

 

[hinmo24t]

how do you even dig something out when its a foot in water and mud?

 

[rockm]

That you are contemplating collecting a 4 foot diameter root mass indicates this particular tree is probably not in your ability level yet. Collecting them is not a matter of digging anything near that size. Look at the root mass on Guy Guidry's huge "twister". To get that compact growth, Guy sawed the stump out of the bayou probably less than a foot out from where the root began on the trunk. This typically removes almost all of the feeder roots at collection. BC have no problem regenerating those roots if collected at the right time. I would take note of this trees location, leave it be until you get more experience. That tree has a pretty decent base that shouldn't go to waste because of too much enthusiasm...

Just sayin'...

And BTW, big trees like that require very large, very expensive and very hard to find extra large pots....

The tree below was collected here in Va. by some friends of mine. It's still being developed. That's a K-mart kiddie pool underneath it...and a bathtub sized mica pot...

 

[Trenthany]

Carefully! Hand saws, shovels and cumalongs all help. I’ll be waist deep in water for part of it.

 

[rockm]

you know how much of that trunk is underwater? There could A LOT more of it...

 

[PA_Penjing]

Big trees give me anxiety, I imagine moving them around the garden and rotating them. haha that said, there's all kinds of people. I have to throw in my vote of "too big" on this one. Only because I couldn't ever imagine myself paying for that amount of soil and pot to match. Not to mention growing a new apex at that diameter has to be time consuming, even for a BC. Like I said, all kinds of people, you know you

 

[Trenthany]

That you are contemplating collecting a 4 foot diameter root mass indicates this particular tree is probably not in your ability level yet. Collecting them is not a matter of digging anything near that size. Look at the root mass on Guy Guidry's huge "twister". To get that compact growth, Guy sawed the stump out of the bayou probably less than a foot out from where the root began on the trunk. This typically removes almost all of the feeder roots at collection. BC have no problem regenerating those roots if collected at the right time. I would take note of this trees location, leave it be until you get more experience. That tree has a pretty decent base that shouldn't go to waste because of too much enthusiasm...

Just sayin'...

And BTW, big trees like that require very large, very expensive and very hard to find extra large pots....

The tree below was collected here in Va. by some friends of mine. It's still being developed. That's a K-mart kiddie pool underneath it...and a bathtub sized mica pot...

View attachment 320561

I’m waiting till the right season for sure. I know aftercare will be a lot of work and that’s exactly what I was thinking of using. I live less than an hour from Wigart’s so I have access to their mica and plastic pots at really reasonable prices. I’m doing lots of research and looking to find someone experienced to help me. If @Zach Smith was a few hours closer I’d ask him to come help. @BillsBayou is too far too but I’m going to keep my ears open. Maybe Eric at Wigart’s will come help lol. I saw a thread where he took some massive oak out of somewhere. Link to video was dead though. Plus if I can get a bunch of good trees whoever I get to come with will have access to trees to collect as well. Total of about 320 acres to search without even asking other property owners. Probably a 1000 acres within 15 minute drive if I start asking other people.

 

[Trenthany]

you know how much of that trunk is underwater? There could A LOT more of it...

The tree is at ground level but it’s next to about a 3’ deep hole in the ground that will be annoying but not insurmountable.

 

[Trenthany]

Big trees give me anxiety, I imagine moving them around the garden and rotating them. haha that said, there's all kinds of people. I have to throw in my vote of "too big" on this one. Only because I couldn't ever imagine myself paying for that amount of soil and pot to match. Not to mention growing a new apex at that diameter has to be time consuming, even for a BC. Like I said, all kinds of people, you know you

Definitely a looooong term project!

 

[Zach Smith]

I’m waiting till the right season for sure. I know aftercare will be a lot of work and that’s exactly what I was thinking of using. I live less than an hour from Wigart’s so I have access to their mica and plastic pots at really reasonable prices. I’m doing lots of research and looking to find someone experienced to help me. If @Zach Smith was a few hours closer I’d ask him to come help. @BillsBayou is too far too but I’m going to keep my ears open. Maybe Eric at Wigart’s will come help lol. I saw a thread where he took some massive oak out of somewhere. Link to video was dead though. Plus if I can get a bunch of good trees whoever I get to come with will have access to trees to collect as well. Total of about 320 acres to search without even asking other property owners. Probably a 1000 acres within 15 minute drive if I start asking other people.

The best advice I can give is get a cordless reciprocating saw and a 12" pruning blade. Wait till early January. Sawing around the base is the easy part; getting under the tree enough to saw part-way through the taproot is your challenge. You can cut part-way and lean the tree over till it cracks and you can get better access to finish the job, but you have to be careful not to go too far or you'll crack the tap right up into the trunk.